Any Gnostics on here?

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I personally don't think the material universe is explicitly evil but rather that the limitations that it puts on psyche is, in the end, something that helps cultivate spirit. It might be like Judas Iscariot, as depicted in the Gospel of Judas, where things transpire in a way, that seems, at the time, oppressive and dissonant, but in the end, come full circle and have a purpose. By purpose, I mean it in the same sense that puzzle pieces or pottery shards have a purpose, in that there's another half. another component that completes it.

I see the material universe more as illusory than evil. We're convinced the material universe is whats more real than anything else, when more accurately, consciousness itself, direct perception, is the true foundation of reality.
We convince ourselves into believing that abstractions are the foundation of being, whether these abstractions are gods or the material world, when what's really important, what's really the true cosmic focal point is what's going on behind your own eyes and ears.

I am gnot a gnostic.

ruveyn

Nobody said anything about knots

I was referring to gnotics, gnot knots.

ruveyn

I thought you were a gnostic...

I most certainly am gnot.

ruveyn

*agnocchi; kinda like the protestant cousin of pastafarianism (church of FSM)

That's only a problem from a certain perspective.

I'm an ordained member of the clergy in Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica.

In terms of Gnosticism (although I'm an atheist), I'm partial to at least a metaphorical understanding of the Ophite Cultus Satanas which focuses on the character of the serpent (Ophite) which is the bringer of wisdom and knowledge to Adam and Eve - whereas God wanted them to remain in ignorance and darkness. This is why metaphorically speaking Lucifer is the bringer of light and knowledge and is the "Satan" (shaitan which means adversary) of "God" who represents submission to ignorance (think about the herd mentality of the Religious Right).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Endor_Coven

That depends...

I actually see the serpent in the garden and Satan as very close, I think Satan is psychological chaos, as well as physical chaos. The Satanic part of the psyche is the baser animal impulses, like the urge to mate, feed, and kill. Its raw libido and can be very destructive when it isn't kept in check by will power. It only acts as an adversary to higher knowledge and awareness when you're a slave to these base impulses. However, the negative impulses of anger, lust, greed, etc, can be transmuted toward the positive, because raw libido is a very potent source of psychological energy, which can be focused toward specific goals or objectives if one cultivates enough self reflection to do so.

I do agree with you though, to the extent that these so-called Christians are really running around in reptile-brain/ limbic system mode. They're just reacting to things half the time through pre-programmed paradigms and not thinking for their selves.

"God", in the context of Genesis, is a cultural egregore, is a collective prejudice that ultimately gets confused for the one true God or the one true transcendent object. The only true God or primary principal is what leads us to greater evolution and growth. I see the God who wanted Adam and Eve to remain in ignorance as one in the same with rigid cultural programming that doesn't allow for growth in any repressive type of society. The serpent of chaos,the element that undermines control structures no matter how hard they try to prevent it, is really neutral in a lot of ways. Satan is really neither good nor evil, but rather the wrench that gets thrown into the gears and gives everyone a reality check. Control structures don't like chaos, because it reveals their inconsistencies and arbitrary nature.

I see the Luciferian and Christ consciousness, on the other hand, as one in the same. The dissolution of ignorance under the light of truth is the true path to true salvation and to attaining one's own divinity. Just as Jesus realized his own godhood, so can we (godhood meaning acting like an evolved human being and not an over-hyped ape). I also think that seeking truth for truths own sake is a better way of coexisting with chaos, rather than resisting it as the false god of genesis wanted Adam and Eve to do or as any rigid hierarchy seeks to do. When you resist chaos, you'll be destroyed by it. This is why science, allowing truth to present itself on its own terms rather than be debased by prejudice, is better suited for coexisting with chaos. Cultural prejudice is likely to contradict the laws of chaos, where objective reason is more equipped to reveal them.

I'm not following you here. The snake in the garden offered them wisdom and knowledge through eating the apple of the knowledge of good and evil while God wished them to remain in ignorance. The same "God" who sent Jesus under the ridiculous "original sin" pretext of their mythos and taught a gospel of faith (belief without proof) rather than knowledge and wisdom gained through doubt.

Lucifer, the bringer of light and wisdom, is ALWAYS the "Satan" (adversary) of the God of faith and ignorance.

“The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black God, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or free will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the light bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”

Albert Pike “Morals and Dogma”, Ancient and Accepted Rite of Free Masonry written and published in 1871. Plagiarized from “History of Magic” published in 1860 written by Eliphas Levi, born Alphonse Louis Constant. Here is his version of the paragraph:

“According to the Kabalists, the true name of Satan is that of Yahveh reversed, for Satan is not a black god but the negation of Deity. He is the personification of Atheism and Idolatry. The devil is not a personality for initiates but a force created with a good object, though it can be applied to evil: it is really the instrument of liberty. They represented this force, which presides over physical generation, under the mythological figure of the horned god Pan, and hence comes the goat of the Sabbath, brother of the old Serpent, the light-bearer or phosphorus, converted by poets into the false Lucifer of the legend.”

Jesus Christ was someone who realized his own divinity through his connection to universal love, just as Socrates and Pythagoras realized their own divinity by connecting to universal wisdom. They were all killed by ignorant masses of people and were later put up on a pedestal after the fact, possibly out of a collective guilt complex. Much of Christ's message was perverted. Rather than discredit him altogether, the church asserted that he was exclusively god in the flesh and that anyone else who sought to become god in the flesh was guilty of a grave blasphemy.

As for the term "Lucifer", it means light bearer, where the original Hebrew word, Halel, meant the north star. The writers of the Vulgate, and subsequently the King James Version, superimposed a Latin concept (Latin word so Latin idea) to a Judaic concept that was nearly 1000 years old at the time when interpreting Isaiah 24. Oddly enough, Christ is directly referred to as "the morning star" and the "day star" on more than one occasion in the New Testament cannon, which would put him in the same role of Venus (and conversely Lucifer), a physical body or vessel that reflects the light of the sun or the light of truth.

Concerning Adam and Eve and the garden, the snake and the fruit are allegories for sexuality, and sexuality is a manifestation of raw libido and the dualistic conflict that makes up the essence of chaos.



Its a double edged sword, because chaos, while it leads to unexpected bursts of creation (whether applying to the birth of a newborn or enabling the material universe to manifest itself), it also leads to unexpected bursts of destruction like the whole predicament Job went through, which neatly applies to Pikes take on the devil. The true God allows the devil (chaos) to evolve us by testing the integrity of our intellect and our souls. Even creation can lead enigmatically to destruction, whether it was the dissolution of the harmonious existence Adam and Eve had in the garden through "knowing their nakedness" or the destruction of our environment today that's a direct analogoue to the trend of technological progress were going through that's devoid of any self awareness of the collective psychology actually driving it (the atheism of Satan that Pike is referring to).

The point shouldn't be to blindly be lead by Satan (the inner animal) anymore than you would want to be lead by an untrained horse or dog. The point is to have enough self awareness to your inner psychology, enough Gnosis, to where you work in harmony with the inner beast, just as one would with a well trained animal. The point is not to be controlled by the physical elements but to understand them and use this understanding to your advantage, whether it be constructing free masonry walls for protection from wild animals or construction of levies to control flooding. What applies to physical reality also applies to your own psyche.

To me, Luciferian consciousness isn't so much the Satanic/chaotic element itself, but an awareness that leads to realization of the natural laws, including the laws of chaos, which allows one to work through them as opposed to being obsoleted by them. Love is the highest law, as all people and all things are interconnected on a foundational, trans-cosmic level, and love is ultimately an awareness of one's interconnectedness to a person or thing. For Jesus, universal love was the object motivating and directing his will in life, just as for Socrates, love of wisdom drove his actions and will.



"John 13:

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

"Revelations 22:

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

"I John 4:

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Last edited by JNathanK on 25 Nov 2012, 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Jesus Christ was someone who realized his own divinity through his connection to universal love, just as Socrates and Pythagoras realized their own divinity by connecting to universal wisdom."

How "New Age" of you.... Jesus Christ is actually a mythological character probably made up from combining a Jewish insurrectionist against Roman rule with the characteristics of other pagan "Savior" figures such as Mithras.

Universal love -bah! That's not even realistic nor do any of the followers of Jesus display such a trait so it is a lie.

How "cliche" of you to reactively regurgitate memes and stereotypes when making broad judgments after barely skimming over one's world view and to think to yourself that this is in some way a real arguing point.

Jesus may be, in part, a myth, and he may bare a lot of resemblance to other mythological figures, but in some ways this confirms the presence of an esoteric reality more than it discredits it. The fact that the crucified savior not only makes appearances in different ages of the old world, but also the pre-Colombian, pre-Christian New World in the form of Viracocha and Quetzalcoatl (who was born of a virgin and crucified in the heavens) leads me to believe these myths aren't just arbitrary nonsense, but address something very fundamental and universal to human psychology. since the same themes crops up in places where they shouldn't pop up in accordance to the Cartesian/Freudian view of things.

Whoever Jesus was in the exoteric, historical sense, I think he was someone who really believed in changing things for the better and was killed by the sick society he sought to heal. His death affected people on a deeply profound level, so much that it conjured up the deepest myths that drive the human psyche, and that's really why Christianity became such a pervasive phenomenon that shook Roman society around as much as it did. The first inclination of Rome was to destroy it, but because it had so much popularity, they eventually subverted it for their own purposes.