The true murderers of the abortion debate

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So a 17 week old fetus is not viable?

No. 21 weeks and 5 days is the absolute earliest, and by 24 weeks the chance of survival is still around 50%

According to the article she was only 17 weeks pregnant, The foetus would have had a near zero chance of surviving, I'm not aware of any surviving before 22 weeks.

By assuming that anyone who do not support abortion in week 20-something supports this, you're straw maning a hell of a lot of people.

If this is blood on the hands of the catholic church, then forced abortions at week 32 in China is blood at the hands of the pro-life guild.

Almost everyone, even the most die hard opponents of abortion, agrees that a late-term abortion is necessary in cases like this.

Last edited by Kurgan on 14 Nov 2012, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Although all the facts of the case have not yet been presented, couldn't the actions of the hospital staff be equivalent to criminally negligent manslaughter?

Last time I checked, septicaemia (the cause of the would-be mother's death) is one of the most common causes of maternal death, so it couldn't be a *complete* surprise to well-trained and responsible health care professionals.

A fetus at 20 weeks is still conscious. A newborn child can't survive without the mother (or someone who can replace the mother). Does that justify infanticide?

I am not assuming that. But they do exist and participate in the debate (clearly as shown by this awful news report). And very relevant to the abortion debate that while pro-lifers love to use the murder rhetoric you cannot seem to find them around when a news like this is around

Nothing changes the fact that this doctor is a murderer and the Catholic church's pro-life speech is responsible at least in part. For feeding his mind with dehumanizing speech towards women seeking for termination.

The blood on the hands of the catholic church is from an actual person. The blood on the hands of China is not.

Fox News biology. You have lost the privilege of me taking your posts seriously. Sorry.

So tell me, when does a baby first develop consciousness?

And pro-lifers who suppirt abortion at 8 months exist. By using extreme cases like this, you're grasping at straws.



The pope has previously said that abortion is a necessary evil if the mother's life is in danger. Any mother without a valid case seeking abortion late in the trimester, is equal to any woman who commits infanticide. Anyone who supports late-term abortions, would also support infanticide if they were brainwashed into supporting it.



The blood on the hands of China is on the hands of anyone who have made it possible. The catholic church, the conservatives or anyone else cannot be held responsible for the opinion of one medical doctor.



You're straw maning again. By the very same logic, you support nazi eugenics. Consciousness does not magically appear one week and five days after the 20th week.

Define consciousness? If you mean the ability to analyse a situation and formulate a response to said situation (versus reflexive actions), then we're talking about after birth here.

Again, "the ability to analyse a situation and formulate a response to said situation" is exactly what babies during the 16th week do when they light enters the womb and use their hands or arms to block it out, vs reflexive actions which are simple retractions or expansions in the muscles without any said judgement needed on whereabouts the muscles needs to move the limb to.

Uh... no. Just no. That's a reflex action. A reflex action can be fairly complex. Just watch a skilled racing driver saving his car from a crash. They react to complex situations with complex movement (sometimes with three or four limbs at once) in ridiculously short time spans, and that's all reflex.

It's learned and thus dependent on previous use of the mind. No reflex actions can be complex without being learned intellectually.

You seem to be confusing consciousness with abstract thinking. A fetus can't think that "this is a thumb", but it's still able to react to it's surroundings, experience REM sleep and reacting to the mother's voice at 20 weeks. The first sign of abstract thinking begins when an infant develops a sense of self at three months.

He's still the one choosing to save the car from the crash, if he wanted to crash straight into the wall the only thing that might stop him is nervousness, which is more of an emotion than reflexes. The relex action would be whatever he doesn't have full control over, such as closing his eyes just before the crash.

Also it would take time to actually learn how to drive and then stop a car from crashing, and relax actions aren't learned but rather come naturally.

Last edited by robo37 on 14 Nov 2012, 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The consultant should only be culpable if they acted on personal moral or religious views rather than medical needs of the mother (I dont know enough about medicine, or this case to say anything else about it). Provision is made in irish law for abortions to be carried out when the mothers life is at risk, however.

that is unfortunate.

Why should this blackmail anyone emotionally into changing their position on abortion... I haven't a clue. None.

I am 100% for the protection of the mothers life, but 99.9% of all abortions have nothing to do with protecting a mothers life.