Schneekugel wrote:
Let me make your sentence correct: "No, it´s more likely that I choose for myself to see these aspects of the human body as a subject to a large degree of various feelings, including desire, disgust, sacredness, and all of the rest I choose myself ." Taboos are partially constructed to create controls over aspects of a social reality that are considered by my personal desicion special, and what we have involving clothing is partially a taboo.
You're not making my statement correct AT ALL. I was providing an analysis, not a statement on whether people should be clothed or not.
Quote:
But making other people responsible for your own free decision, to deliver yourself to hysteria just because of a naked body, is to make yourself irresponsible for your own actions. You are not forced to feel "various feelings, including desire, disgust, sacredness", thousands of people around the globus, every child who has not been already taught to choose himself to go hysteria because of naked bodies, is proof to this. They are the same race as you, human, so there can be no natural need to feel "various feelings, including desire, disgust, sacredness". So its free for you to decide how you want, but when the negative consequences you endure, are based on your own decision, the only one responsible for your decision are you yourself and not others.
I didn't say "need".
Also, this largely isn't a personal decision, this is a socialization process involving group norms. The fact that large numbers of people come to an agreement on this rule isn't a matter of luck. What's being enforced is a norm that people have generally agreed upon, not a set of disparate personal opinions.
Finally, children really aren't proof of the workings of societies. If you'll note, the aspects pointed to were sexual, but children don't have a working concept of sexuality, so.... it's not really evidence of anything. So, children don't have taboos, but EVERY SOCIETY has taboos. Somewhere there's a gap going on, and your analysis just doesn't get it.
Quote:
So everybody should be free to choose if he wants to wear cloth in his leisure, but forcing your will on other free people by telling lies of an unseen force, forcing you to feel "desire, disgust, sacredness", i mean sorry, but if there is an unseen force somewhere around you forcing you to do things, talk to a doctor for your own sake.
Hold on, I never even said "unseen force".
Even further, nothing in your analysis even follows. You're criticizing me on no grounds other than an interpretation you READ INTO my statement, and then you're providing a statement about moral necessity that has no real relationship to any form of reality. I mean, sure it's great to talk about individual rights and how people ought to be free, etc, etc, etc. The issue is that in the real world, most people have values much deeper than just talk of freedom. They're concerned about social norms and communities, they're concerned about aesthetics, they're concerned about all sorts of things. And arguably there is a really good case on the face of it for allowing public nudity, but honestly, I would really think it should come down more to "Who is harmed?" and "Who benefits?", otherwise this is just doctrinaire ideology.
And... I think most people within US society would end up siding with "I, or those I care about, are somehow harmed by the nudity of others" than there are people who benefit. You may be OUTRAGED by the idea that nudity is a harm, however, there is nothing in any economic analysis or anything philosophical dictating that it cannot be some sort of harm. Watching surgery shows could be a form of harm for some people. For a period of time, I found body art "harmful" to look at as it triggered notions of disgust. The entire matter ends up being very subjective based upon past cultural ideas, etc, etc, etc.
Quote:
Sorry, but if your feeling disgust, then blame the media for confronting you with lots of altered pictures of seemingly perfect people, edited by photo shops and hours of hair styling and make up, so that you dont seem to know anymore how normal people look like. To see normal people as disgusting, would bother me.
Umm..... why should I blame anything? If I have this feeling, then I have this feeling. I don't need to do some witch-hunt for the source of it. There's no reason to even consider this wrong. It's not even the media's fault. I mean, I'm going to be disgusted at seeing about 50% of the human population ANYWAY because they're not the gender I find sexually attractive. Out of the gender I find sexually attractive, the set I'm going to be disgusted by is going to be the set outside of my age range, so the very old and the very very young. That's not really a matter of unrealistic beauty standards though.
I also don't really give a damn about what bothers you anyway. You seem to be up in arms about what bothers Americans even though, there's no real reason why they can't be bothered.
--------------
So, in short, your reading of me is BS. And... your arguments fall deeply below the point. I mean, to be direct, I don't think there is a single society that runs itself off of pure reason. I'm not even sure that the goal is meaningful either, because cultures kind of matter to people. The real issue is harm or falsehood.
19 Nov 2012, 12:23 pm
