"Flatten Gaza like Hiroshima"Israeli public figure

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Hamas would obliterate Israel, given the chance. They only lack the military means to do this. How do I know this? First, they've stated this many times. Second, they've been progressively advancing their weapons capability, and every time they gain a new weapon, they use it to intentionally target Israeli civilians. Meanwhile, they intentionally endanger their own civilians by launching rockets from residential neighborhoods and placing ammo dumps in people's houses. Israel has the upper hand militarily, but ironically its this big gap in military capability, and Hamas's relative lack of success in killing Israeli's and lack of ability to put up much of a fight, that directly leads to all of this unwarranted sympathy towards Hamas. Israel, if it chose, could literally flatten every building in Gaza right now, not to mention killing every militant and civilian there. The fact that it hasn't done this, while its own civilians are constantly threatened by the people living in Gaza, speaks volumes about what's really going on here, and which side is in the right, and which is in the wrong.

Let me state something I said above more clearly: one side of this conflict INTENTIONALLY ATTEMPTS TO KILL CIVILIANS every chance it gets, and yet this is the side that many who have posted here say they sympathize with. One side of this conflict INTENTIONALLY PLACES LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS IN CIVILIAN AREAS, and yet it is this side of the conflict that many of you who have posted here sympathize with, lamenting the civilian casualties that side of the conflict has suffered, despite the fact that most if not all of the casualties they've suffered are collateral damage from attempts to destroy these legitimate military targets that were intentionally placed in civilian areas.

If Israel were smart, it would today turn the Gaza strip over to Egypt, unconditionally, and turn the West Bank over to Jordan, unconditionally. Then we'd see how these other Arab countries who express so much sympathy and solidarity with the Palestinians would really treat the Palestinians. Does anyone here think Egypt and Jordan would turn around and create an independent state of Palestine in these two territories? Almost certainly not. And at the same time they wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with the rats nest of terrorist militants that suddenly became part of their countries.

I would be more sympathetic to Israel if they would stop occupying Palestinian territory. Their behaviour seems to be expansionist rather than defensive.

There is no Palestine. That was concocted in 1964.

ruveyn

Correct. The Ottomans considered what's now called "Palestine" to be a subdivision of Syria. Syria still exists, the Syrian culture still exists—and neither is in any way threatened by Israel.

It doesn't matter what you call it, the Palestinians having been living on that land for generations and it has been designated as theirs. Israel has a nation with designated borders and should stay within them.

Technically, Israel isn't forcing them to leave.

The New York Times

When someone moves into someone else's home and starts to decorate, they are trying to force them to leave.

Jordan actually occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Jews were expelled from East Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter; villages were destroyed; synagogues were burnt to the ground and an ancient Jewish cemetery was desecrated. The Palestinians got far less rights than under Israeli rule. Palestinians lived in a worse state than under Israeli rule. During that time, there were no screaming at Jordanians from J&S Palestinians about an independent Palestinian state. Only when it comes to Israel are these demands there.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U[/youtube]

Actually, Israel is occupying land that was most recently part of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (the West Bank). You'll note that these are the only two Arab countries who have signed peace treaties with Israel. Strangely, the countries whose land is being occupied have little if any complaint about it. I also note that the Palestinians themselves were not seeking an independent Palestine when their land was part of Egypt and Jordan, despite the fact that all illegalities supposedly entailed by the Israeli occupation of these lands would also apply to the Egyptian and Jordanian occupation of these lands. No, its only against Israel that they proclaim this self-righteous outrage. And there has never been an independent Palestine, and the word "Palestinian" is an invented ethnicity designed to create an identifiable, supposedly suffering separate group whose suffering can be blamed on Israel. The fact of the matter is Palestinians are arabs - just like the other people living in the countries that these lands were formally part of. A "palestinian" is no different than an Egyptian or a Jordanian. They already have their country.

So are you saying that the people living in Gaza and the Golan Heights should leave the land they are living on? I don't think it matters what name you call them by. They are just people living their lives on land that has been designated as theirs.

And they use "their" land as a base for attacking a neighbor.

ruveyn

If you used your apartment as a launching pad for rockets to attack the neighboring building, I feel confident you'd be evicted rather quickly.

Likewise, if Indians living on a reservation started firing rockets at the nearest village, the U.S. government would put an end to that in short order.

And the land was never designated as "theirs". It was part of the Ottoman Empire, then British, then Egypt and Jordan. Then Israel conquered it from Egypt and Jordan during wars that were started by those and other Arab countries. If anything it should be given back to Egypt and Jordan for them to do with as they will. The Palestinians will become citizens of those two countries, or refugees living within the territories of those two countries, which would return the situation to the status quo that existed before Israel took those lands. I suspect the Palestinians will be happier in the short term to be free of Israel, but in the long term they'll end up no better and probably worse off than they are now. Egypt, Jordan and the rest of the Arab countries hav no real love for Palestinians either, except to use them as pawns in a propaganda game with Israel and among their own people.

So do the Israelis.



All the more reason to support the Palestinians.


I realize that Israel claims the right to the occupied territories, but this is not recognized internationally. This is why I view Israel as expansionist.

I am sure the Israelis will be very upset, knowing this.

ruveyn

Only after they get attacked first, usually.

I agree with this. It's very hard to emphasize with either side for me. Israel is douchey, and through terrorism see here they established the state of Israel and displaced the local population. So then, the PLO comes around and is super douchey tries to take over Lebanon. Note, none of the Arab League countries when they fought against Israel recognized the state of Palestine. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc, just wanted a piece of the pie. So Palestine is a country that's been around for all of 50 years longer than Israel when the British made the mandate, and it wasn't even their own country, it was a British colony. So yes, Palestine doesn't really exist either. So both sides in this war have basically artificial identities. Though to be fair to the Palestinians, or what is called the Palestinians, when they were conquered by the British and Ottomans, they weren't displaced like with the Israelis.

I find it hard to forgive the PLO for what they did in Lebanon, more or less ruining a nice country like that. They tried to take over Lebanon. They didn't "just" want their land, they decided they wanted their own country, whoever the power hungry leaders of the PLO were.

Then once the PLO used Lebanon as a base, Israel found a convenient excuse to invade and bomb Lebanon, too. My personal theory is that the entire Palestinian resistance is being orchestrated by Israel intelligence to benefit Israel. In all these things, Palestine for example, launches a crappy homemade rocket made of pipes at the Israelis and maybe kills a few people. Israel can then respond with an air strike over that and kill dozens. With the PLO's case in Lebanon, it gave Israel an excuse to intrude into Lebanon and bomb the hell out of it, and even just the PLO presence in Lebanon destabilized it to the point of civil war. Remember, Israel wanted almost all the land in the Middle East at one point, and it feels its destiny for them to own it. I find the entire Palestinian resistance too convenient for Israel's sake for Israel to not somehow have a hand in it. And we know from experience Israel doesn't care about playing dirty at all, and will just go into foreign countries and assassinate people as it feels like.

So yes, I support Israel just giving back Gaza to Jordan and Egypt and what have you, as they're the closest to the rightful owners of it.