Public schools are bad and should not exist.

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visagrunt
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28 Nov 2012, 1:42 pm

So long as we draw a distinction between government as the service provider, and government guaranteeing primary and secondary education free at the point of delivery, then I don't disagree.

I don't particularly care whether schools are run by the government, or by independent bodies. But I am fervently of the view that government must:

1) pay for the primary and secondary education of every child (and non-graduated adult, for that matter),
2) set educational standards to be met by all schools (learning outcomes and graduation requirements)
3) ensure that every student has reasonable access to a secular school.

But within that framework, I am perfectly content for those objectives to be met by independent schools (and for that matter, parochial schools, provided that they are not the only game in town).


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ruveyn
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28 Nov 2012, 1:42 pm

Oodain wrote:

that however relies on humans actually being capable and logical as a group, is that the impression you get from the mankind in general?
i dont.


The Ford Edsel failed the market test. I rest my case.

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28 Nov 2012, 2:00 pm

That is one thing I've been reading, parents have increasing been giving up on public schools, looking at other options. Whether it be home schooling, charter schools, private class learning, or even internet teaching, reforms are needed in how we teach our children - in particular with our changing work environment. The young need to taught how to be more entrepreneurial. The big box schools are not getting the job done.

Recall this article about fewer kids attending public schools these days.

"Americans Flee Public Schools"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... c-schools/

And sadly another teaching scandal has happened.

"Teachers Implicated in Memphis Cheating Ring"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... ting-ring/

From Walter Russell Mead's sight:

Quote:
We’ve seen more school cheating scandals than usual over the past few years, but this is the most egregious yet. A Memphis-area former assistant principal is now under investigation for running a 15-year cheating ring in which current teachers were paid to take certification tests for prospective teachers in Mississippi, Arkansas and Tennessee. The New York Times reports:
According to court documents, Mr. Mumford, a former assistant principal and guidance counselor, helped create fake government identification for test takers, and collected fees ranging from $1,500 to $3,000 from individuals who were concerned about passing tests administered by the Educational Testing Service in Arkansas, Mississippi and Tennessee.
The tests, which are taken by people who want to obtain a teaching license or to acquire additional credentials in a specific subject, are known as Praxis exams. They are a requirement for obtaining teaching certifications in 37 states, according to the E.T.S.
Yet these exams are among the easiest in the nation, covering only the most basic information that any teacher would need to know:
“These are pretty basic tests,” said Sarah Almy, the director of teacher quality at theEducation Trust, a research and advocacy group that works to close achievement gaps and that is calling for an overhaul of teacher training in the United States. “The fact that there were folks who felt like they needed to bring somebody else in in order to meet a very basic level of content knowledge is disturbing, in particular for the kids those teachers are going to wind up teaching.”
There are two salient facts to this shocking story. First, the certification tests that license teachers to teach in many states ask for pathetically low levels of knowledge. Second, many people taking these tests are so ignorant and unqualified that they feel the need to cheat in order to pass.
Neither of these facts speaks well for our current teaching corps. But these bad apples shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of teachers as a whole—all the more reason why these should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Instead, we have teacher unions that will fight to the death to make sure that none of these unqualified, immoral teachers can be fired no matter how incompetent they are.



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28 Nov 2012, 2:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Rhinox wrote:

The Government has a huge incentive to perform well. It's own existence is tied to the people it serves. If we are truly underserved or die out, so too does the government. It is in its own best interest to function well.
Private business is run with an eye to profit, nothing more. If it is better on a pay sheet to let me die in the street, a private business would, without question. With government, however, it is in their best interest I stay alive and healthy so I can generate tax revenue.


For a private firm, every day is Judgement Day. For a government election day is Judgement Day. In between election you have to put up with whatever sh*t the government is dropping on your head. With a private firm, you simply stop doing business with them. If enough people do this, they will either clean up their act or go out of business.

ruveyn


You have a very charitable view of business. One can only imagine why.

You seem to enjoy throwing out single examples to prove a point, allow me to do the same. Bank of America. No one likes doing business with them. Dave Ramsey frequently villifies them on his program. I have yet to hear a single person happy with the service provided and yet they're a multi billion dollar business.

No, corporations have no judgement day so long as they have cash reserves.


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Jacoby
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28 Nov 2012, 3:13 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
A lot of the bickering about public schools is because certain parents don't want their children knowing certain facts about reality. I can understand how a person would desire to sidestep all of this, but the problem is that without some standards, we will certainly have some parents who send their kids to school to bad outcomes. (Jesus H Christ High, where this: http://pbh2.blogspot.com/2010/07/electr ... jones.html is an acceptable textbook)

If parents send their kids to schools like that, then what's the point of the public subsidy at all? The public subsidy to education is to social benefit, not private distortion and lies.


If a parent sends their child to a private school that teaches stuff like this then it's their prerogative. Most parent's main concern for their children is for them to become independent functional adults. Parent's have delegated far too much responsibility for their child's education to bureaucrats and politicians(you know, people known to have the child's best interests at heart) Self interest dictates that parent's will provide their children with an adequate education.

Public schools indoctrinate just as much and in a more insidious way, all it's good for is preparing you for a life of obedience and institutionalization. I know certain people would like their own strident ideological beliefs imposed on everyone and the only way for one to do that is thru compulsory public education. The school I went to had a very 'progressive' curriculum, a lot of good it did most of my classmates the majority of which are now drug addicts and criminals.



androbot2084
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28 Nov 2012, 3:30 pm

the religious right says if you can't afford $20,000 a year to send your kid to private school then the kid should do without an education and be illiterate.



ruveyn
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28 Nov 2012, 4:11 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
the religious right says if you can't afford $20,000 a year to send your kid to private school then the kid should do without an education and be illiterate.


Schooling that reaches basic literacy does not cost nearly the much.

Higher education is a different matter.

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28 Nov 2012, 4:43 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
the religious right says if you can't afford $20,000 a year to send your kid to private school then the kid should do without an education and be illiterate.


that's about what public schools spends per student

money well spent huh?



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28 Nov 2012, 4:50 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Now you may be thinking "You seemed so left-wing! Have you become libertarian?"

No, I have not become libertarian. I have discovered that it is possible for people who are fiscally left-wing to hate public schools.

Right now we have a system where children are educated by the state through the public schools. As a result, parents constantly bicker over what should be taught in schools. Things would be better if the government gave parents enough money to educate their own kids because nobody would argue about public schools anymore.

"Mass education was designed to turn independent farmers into docile, passive tools of production. That was its primary purpose. And don't think people didn't know it. They knew it and they fought against it. There was a lot of resistance to mass education for exactly that reason."
- Noam Chomsky

Chomsky is an idiot and conspiracy theorist about many things. Just because of his "anti-imperialism" he has no problem with the dictatorship wannabees in South America. The guy is really a hypocrite. Freedom of thought is sacred for him as long as it is in America. But in other countries, basic liberties are secondary priority to his "dream" of having more phony governments that tout the anti-imperialism cliche.

In this case, Chomsky is full of BS. No. You cannot be left wing and against public schooling. People of all resource access need education.


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visagrunt
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28 Nov 2012, 5:29 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
You cannot be left wing and against public schooling. People of all resource access need education.


Of course you can.

I believe that government must ensure that every student has access to primary and secondary education free at the point of delivery. But that is not the same thing as believing that government must operate the schools at which that educational service is provided.


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28 Nov 2012, 5:46 pm

Your post implies that parents bickering over curriculums is the core problem with education. At best, its a relatively minor one. The real problem is that after the curriculum has been determined (albeit with some dissenting parents, no doubt), schools are often ineffective at teaching the curriculum.

Systemically eliminating public schools implies one,or a combination, of three alternatives:

a) eliminate formal education - very bad for society in the long term

b) replace public schools with private schools - which will also have parents bickering over the curriculum

c) replace public schools with home schooling - which has a whole host of problems not the least of which is kids not only being disadvantaged in life when their parents have poor parenting skills (which we already have today), but kids being further disadvantaged in life when it turns out their parents also have poor teaching skills and/or poor educations themselves, or are working 2-3 jobs already and don't have time to spend 6-7 hours a day with their kids teaching them (which, by the way, results in kids having all that time free to get into trouble). Even the worst teachers at least had to achieve some minimal level of certification, a level which many parents could never hope to achieve themselves.



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28 Nov 2012, 7:40 pm

Public schools are the answer some of the time.
Private schools are the answer some of the time.
Home schooling is the answer some of the time.
None of the above are the answer all of the time.

I got all of my K12 schooling from public schools in three school districts. The first two where within the same county and the third was in another state. Some of them were better than others. The one city school district was the worse of the three. Half of the student body belonged in a juvenile detention center and the teachers were mostly a**holes (union a**holes at that) even when they weren't on strike.


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Vexcalibur
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28 Nov 2012, 8:41 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Of course you can.

I believe that government must ensure that every student has access to primary and secondary education free at the point of delivery. But that is not the same thing as believing that government must operate the schools at which that educational service is provided.


The former is still public schooling.


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ruveyn
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28 Nov 2012, 8:51 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Of course you can.

I believe that government must ensure that every student has access to primary and secondary education free at the point of delivery. But that is not the same thing as believing that government must operate the schools at which that educational service is provided.


The former is still public schooling.


And it is redistributive as well. those with no children will end up paying for some child's schooling.

If the redistribution is voluntary, I have no objection, but taxing the childless to pay for the child-full is tyranny and theft.

I am a believer in literacy. I have done volunteer work for organizations that help children with their reading. And guess were this children are? In schools paid for by you and me and failing to teach them to read properly.

I taught my kids (4 of the them) how to read phonetically by the age of 4. I didn't need no steeeeenking public school for that.

ruveyn



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29 Nov 2012, 11:57 am

ruveyn wrote:

And it is redistributive as well. those with no children will end up paying for some child's schooling.

If the redistribution is voluntary, I have no objection, but taxing the childless to pay for the child-full is tyranny and theft.

I am a believer in literacy. I have done volunteer work for organizations that help children with their reading. And guess were this children are? In schools paid for by you and me and failing to teach them to read properly.

I taught my kids (4 of the them) how to read phonetically by the age of 4. I didn't need no steeeeenking public school for that.

ruveyn

Taxation is not theft. Everyone benefits from having a well-educated workforce, so everyone should pay towards public education, if they can afford it.

Reading phonetically isn't ideal, but that shouldn't diminish your achievement. Not everyone is suitable to teach their children to read, however.



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29 Nov 2012, 12:26 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Taxation is not theft. Everyone benefits from having a well-educated workforce, so everyone should pay towards public education, if they can afford it.

Taking property from someone without his or her consent is theft, whether or not it's legal and whether or not the end result is beneficial. The only reason people say that taxation isn't theft is because theft has a negative stigma and they don't want that stigma attached to taxation.

Just because "everyone" benefits from public education doesn't justify requiring everyone to pay for it. I benefit from my neighbors taking care of their properties, but it would be silly for them to come ask me to help pay for it. And no, education is not different.