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What exactly does it mean to "contribute to society?&qu

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Jacoby
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02 Dec 2012, 2:05 pm

fuelred wrote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society." But what exactly does that mean? What do you have to do in order to be considered a contribution to society? How much do you have to do? Why are certain things considered as contributions, while other things aren't? Does teaching someone as valuable lesson count, or does it not stimulate the economy enough?


Well, my first suggestion would be stop socializing with folks with toothbrush mustaches.

As for what "contributing to society" is, I suppose it's different to different people. Like being a doctor, to as big as an inventor of something that changes our way of life, or volunteering for causes you believe in. Something that makes a positive difference.

When used in the way you put it probably more or less means "contribute to the state". So paying more in taxes than you receive back or working for the state would be contributing to society.



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03 Dec 2012, 7:31 am

The unemployed are conscripts in a Reserve Army of Labour set up to fight inflation. That's a contribution. It has been decreed that a Reserve Army of Labour must be of a certain size and someone's got to be in it. Starving your Reserve Army of Labour is not only to show ingrattitude but it means that new conscripts must be found to fight the neverending war on inflation.



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03 Dec 2012, 7:38 am

xenon13 wrote:
The unemployed are conscripts in a Reserve Army of Labour set up to fight inflation. That's a contribution. It has been decreed that a Reserve Army of Labour must be of a certain size and someone's got to be in it. Starving your Reserve Army of Labour is not only to show ingrattitude but it means that new conscripts must be found to fight the neverending war on inflation.


Marxist clap-trap.

ruveyn



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03 Dec 2012, 4:15 pm

It's fuzzy. You could argue that anyone who isn't making material contributions directly to society at large is "useless-" this would include artists, the disabled, and the elderly. Most non-nazis generalize "contributing to society" as creating something of economic value (work, making things, etc).

But there are indirect contributions as well. Taking care of those who are less fortunate makes an impression on people living in a society, so in that way keeping people who aren't directly contributing in an economic way is still justified. It's a statement that human life is worth something, and that the human condition means something. This is supposed to motivate people to be more productive... I don't know if anyone's actually done the science to see if it is or not.



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03 Dec 2012, 4:23 pm

Evinceo wrote:
It's fuzzy. You could argue that anyone who isn't making material contributions directly to society at large is "useless-" this would include artists, the disabled, and the elderly. Most non-nazis generalize "contributing to society" as creating something of economic value (work, making things, etc).

But there are indirect contributions as well. Taking care of those who are less fortunate makes an impression on people living in a society, so in that way keeping people who aren't directly contributing in an economic way is still justified. It's a statement that human life is worth something, and that the human condition means something. This is supposed to motivate people to be more productive... I don't know if anyone's actually done the science to see if it is or not.


Everyone who helps someone else do their jobs is contributing in a secondary way. The cleanup crew that removes the rubbish from laboratories provides a clear and clean place for the scientists who work there. The people who make the computers that our science gurus sue are doing their part. Etc. etc.

In sports, the water boys and the bat boys have there little roll to place and the crew the mows the grass in the ball parks makes it possible for the athletes to do their stuff.

And so on....

ruveyn



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03 Dec 2012, 4:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
The unemployed are conscripts in a Reserve Army of Labour set up to fight inflation. That's a contribution. It has been decreed that a Reserve Army of Labour must be of a certain size and someone's got to be in it. Starving your Reserve Army of Labour is not only to show ingrattitude but it means that new conscripts must be found to fight the neverending war on inflation.


Marxist clap-trap.

ruveyn


isnt it pretty much a fact of modern economics that there will be a certain basline of unemployment which you simply cant remove entirely?


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03 Dec 2012, 4:30 pm

Oodain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
The unemployed are conscripts in a Reserve Army of Labour set up to fight inflation. That's a contribution. It has been decreed that a Reserve Army of Labour must be of a certain size and someone's got to be in it. Starving your Reserve Army of Labour is not only to show ingrattitude but it means that new conscripts must be found to fight the neverending war on inflation.


Marxist clap-trap.

ruveyn


isnt it pretty much a fact of modern economics that there will be a certain basline of unemployment which you simply cant remove entirely?


NAIRU.



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03 Dec 2012, 4:32 pm

thank you, didnt know the actual name of the concept.


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03 Dec 2012, 5:53 pm

fuelred wrote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society." But what exactly does that mean?

I don't think a severely disabled person has to do anything; I think by virtue of their existence, that they deserve to live. That is, it's not the individual disabled person, it's the greater concept of charity that is the contribution to society. By looking after those who cannot look after themselves we become better as a society. So I guess this is where taxation would come in; I am willing to pay taxes to go to the support of people who need help.


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03 Dec 2012, 6:17 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
fuelred wrote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society." But what exactly does that mean?

I don't think a severely disabled person has to do anything; I think by virtue of their existence, that they deserve to live. That is, it's not the individual disabled person, it's the greater concept of charity that is the contribution to society. By looking after those who cannot look after themselves we become better as a society. So I guess this is where taxation would come in; I am willing to pay taxes to go to the support of people who need help.


It seems many are all about 'contributing to society' except when it comes to them paying their taxes. I have yet to see anyone that exhibits this trait come up with a better solution.


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03 Dec 2012, 8:12 pm

fuelred wrote:

Quote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society.

Sounds like you’ve either been to Nazi Germany or you’ve been listening to American liberals making straw man attacks on conservatives. But, of course, they think of us conservatives as Nazis and we think of them as Communists, anyway……


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03 Dec 2012, 8:32 pm

Raptor wrote:
fuelred wrote:
Quote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society.

Sounds like you’ve either been to Nazi Gitmo Nation Deutschland or you’ve been listening to Gitmo Nation West liberals making straw man attacks on conservatives. But, of course, they think of us conservatives as Nazis and we think of them as Communists, anyway……


Why is everyone so polarized on this issue? There will always be people in need of help in any post-industrial society. Can we forget party lines and names for a brief moment and realize that we are ALL one nation? We support each other, we all have individual chance for opportunity. What's the alternative?

Best Regards,

Jake


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03 Dec 2012, 8:45 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Raptor wrote:
fuelred wrote:
Quote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society.

Sounds like you’ve either been to Nazi Gitmo Nation Deutschland or you’ve been listening to Gitmo Nation West liberals making straw man attacks on conservatives. But, of course, they think of us conservatives as Nazis and we think of them as Communists, anyway……


Why is everyone so polarized on this issue? There will always be people in need of help in any post-industrial society. Can we forget party lines and names for a brief moment and realize that we are ALL one nation? We support each other, we all have individual chance for opportunity. What's the alternative?

Best Regards,

Jake


Polarized?
There are two sides to the United States: The ones that voted for Barack and the ones that didn't. Expect it to worsen in the years (more like months) to come.......


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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 8:54 pm

Raptor wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
Raptor wrote:
fuelred wrote:
Quote:
I've heard people say that anyone who is severely disabled and cannot live independently shouldn't be aloud to live because they don't "contribute to society.

Sounds like you’ve either been to Nazi Gitmo Nation Deutschland or you’ve been listening to Gitmo Nation West liberals making straw man attacks on conservatives. But, of course, they think of us conservatives as Nazis and we think of them as Communists, anyway……


Why is everyone so polarized on this issue? There will always be people in need of help in any post-industrial society. Can we forget party lines and names for a brief moment and realize that we are ALL one nation? We support each other, we all have individual chance for opportunity. What's the alternative?

Best Regards,

Jake


Polarized?
There are two sides to the Gitmo Nation West: The ones that voted for Barack and the ones that didn't. Expect it to worsen in the years (more like months) to come.......


Just read this thread and see just how polarized it is. It's horrific.


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03 Dec 2012, 9:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
The unemployed are conscripts in a Reserve Army of Labour set up to fight inflation. That's a contribution. It has been decreed that a Reserve Army of Labour must be of a certain size and someone's got to be in it. Starving your Reserve Army of Labour is not only to show ingrattitude but it means that new conscripts must be found to fight the neverending war on inflation.


Marxist clap-trap.

ruveyn


Not Marx, Milton Friedman. It's called NAIRU, I'm sure you know, I've mentioned it often enough. Friedman decided that Marx's industrial reserve army is a good thing and must be maintained at all costs unlike Marx who criticised it.



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03 Dec 2012, 9:16 pm

Oodain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
The unemployed are conscripts in a Reserve Army of Labour set up to fight inflation. That's a contribution. It has been decreed that a Reserve Army of Labour must be of a certain size and someone's got to be in it. Starving your Reserve Army of Labour is not only to show ingrattitude but it means that new conscripts must be found to fight the neverending war on inflation.


Marxist clap-trap.

ruveyn


isnt it pretty much a fact of modern economics that there will be a certain basline of unemployment which you simply cant remove entirely?


No, it was decided that there must be a minimum unemployment rate under which governments act to ensure that this minimum is respected. The first weapon usually used is monetary policy. They claim that failing to do this will cause Accelerating Inflation. This is why unemployment during the neoliberal era after which NAIRU became holy writ has almost always been much higher than it was during the preceding period. Britain used to have 2% unemployment regularly. Thatcher remember ran in 1979 on the slogan "Labour is not working" when that rate was up to 5% thanks to monetarism implemented after Treasury falsified some figures and the IMF got involved. After two years in office the unemployment rate under Thatcher jumped to 13%. Thatcher was a big disciple of Milton Friedman's by the way. It's well-known that this was her chief weapon against the unions; to deliberately and with malice aforethought create massive unemployment.