Prayer out of schools?

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06 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

^You wouldn't actually have any 6th form level education in Manchester (the city, not the metro area) if you got rid of state funded religious education. You would also lose about 3/4 of the secondary schools. That's how much faith dominates our schools over here.

I agree with Dawkins, but we're in way too deep to just get rid of state funded faith schools. Even though it would be technically possible to get rid of the 'religious' status of the schools, the backlash would be enormous. People would think you were ripping the heart out of the school if you did that because people think that the 'faith' status is what makes the schools good. Better to just force them to take on more students from other religions and force them to actually follow the curriculum for RE and sex education.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 06 Dec 2012, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrXxx
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06 Dec 2012, 2:16 pm

Keniichi wrote:

LKL wrote:

*sigh*
Kids can pray to themselves all they want, at least in the US. They just can't disrupt class to do it, or harass other students because their religion tells them to, and they can't do it as a representative of the school (ie, over loudspeakers or as an official part of a cheerleading routine). It is an overt fallacy to claim that kids can't pray at all; even the ACLU can and will jump on that and defend kids' rights to pray.

Really now-? My friend got sent to the principles office for praying right before he was about to eat lunch.

If your friend wasn't imposing the prayer on anyone else or being disruptive, it is illegal to interfere with that, even in school, in the United States.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:23 pm

TallyMan wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Keniichi wrote:

Is anyone else saddened by this? I know prayer has been forbidden in most of the schools I have gone too,however I dont get why?
You dont have to force anyone to pray, and when you do you dont have to force anyone to hear nor see you praying. I have always pray/prayed in my head, before I was even aware that it was forbidden in schools.
So with that being the case why is it forbidden? Or at least why is it forbidden in the schools that I have gone too?
After all prayer is supposed to be just talking with God, it WASNT a mandatory thing?

The social pressure to conform is real. Those kids who do not pray will be beaten bloody by bullies in the school yard.

There is only one answer: Prayers at home or in church. NOTHING of that sort in the public schools where all sorts of tax payers carry the freight. Atheists and Agnostics pay taxes too.

The American Constitution is very clear on the matter. No Establishment of Religion. Not a bit of it.

ruveyn

You make a good point Ruveyn. The converse would be true in the UK now if praying was optional - virtually no kids would participate and they would be the ones considered different and likely bullied in the school yard. I can just picture school dinners too... a small minority of kids saying grace before a meal... they'd be laughed out of school by the other kids. The only way I can see religion working at school if it was an extra-curricula activity i.e. voluntary outside school houses with a voluntary (unpaid) teacher willing to take a religious class / prayer group, study of bible / koran / other religious text. This would work in much the same way as other extra-curricula school clubs... like the science club I used to attend and do my own experiments.

This is true. I went to a CofE primary school so we all sang hymns (and religious songs that probably couldn't be called hymns), and prayed silently in assemblies. Even the children of other faiths and the kids who thought "lolz god is stoopid" would say "amen" and sing along. We never said grace though.
At my secondary school, I was really bemused when we didn't pray in assemblies, and there was never any singing. There is a Christian Union which meets once a week after school, but that's as involved as religion gets. I am sure if those Christians had tried praying before meals in the lower years, they would have been mocked, likewise if Muslims had done their whole prayer routine at school.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:29 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I agree with Dawkins, but we're in way too deep to just get rid of state funded faith schools. Even though it would be technically possible to get rid of the 'religious' status of the schools, the backlash would be enormous. People would think you were ripping the heart out of the school if you did that because people think that the 'faith' status is what makes the schools good. Better to just force them to take on more students from other religions and force them to actually follow the curriculum for RE and sex education.

I think the other point is that the religious schools can basically teach as much religious education as they like. If you watched that documentary (I don't know if you did or not), basically they were saying that the schools can teach hours and hours of this stuff extra per week, and, as you say, can meld it into what they like. Also, that there's pretty much zero difference between religious schools and not. I think it's the old thing about people thinking that religion is good and brings order, even amongst agnostics and weak atheists. It's barmy.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:31 pm

MrXxx wrote:

If your friend wasn't imposing the prayer on anyone else or being disruptive, it is illegal to interfere with that, even in school, in the United States.

What if someone had a particular religion (I honestly can't think of one offhand) that actually placed disruptive, noisy, or proselytising practices into the very core of their worship when other people are around? Catch-22 right there.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:33 pm

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

I know. At primary school, I had an hour of it every single day.

I think people have another set of standards for kids. Children are seen as stupid and savage, like what humans were like hundreds or thousands of years ago, in a sense. So the tool that was used to 'civilise' people in the Dark Ages is seen as the most effective one to use on kids. Kids aren't going to eat Humanist Wheetabix as readily as Jesus Magical Frosted Flakes.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 06 Dec 2012, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:34 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I think people have another set of standard for kids. Children are seen as stupid and savage, like what humans were like hundreds or thousands of years ago, in a sense. So the tool that was used to 'civilise' people in the Dark Ages is seen as the most effective one to use on kids.

It works wonders, doesn't it. It's a good way to make some people either fanatically religious or fanatically hate religion.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:35 pm

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

It works wonders, doesn't it.

Yeah, you get no bullying whatsoever at faith schools and no-one ever gets pregnant before leaving. :roll:

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06 Dec 2012, 2:36 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Kids aren't going to eat Humanist Wheetabix as readily as Jesus Magical Frosted Flakes.

Sugar or no sugar? And what milk do you think they use?

(Sorry, I'm just being nonsensically sarky. Ignore me.)

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06 Dec 2012, 2:37 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Yeah, you get no bullying whatsoever at faith schools and no-one ever gets pregnant before leaving. :roll:

Absolutely, you gay, fatty, pregnant, crippled, black, Welsh, Scottish, ginger, four-eyed, stinky girl etc etc...

Last edited by Tequila on 06 Dec 2012, 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:38 pm

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

I think the other point is that the religious schools can basically teach as much religious education as they like.

I think I saw something the other day about proposed legislation in the UK to force teaching of evolution and not creationism due to the infiltration of American fundamentalist organisations trying to pervert UK education with their propaganda.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:39 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Yes, it's a particular problem in both Christian and Islamic schools.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:43 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

I think the other point is that the religious schools can basically teach as much religious education as they like.

They taught both systems (creationism and evolution) when I was at Catholic school (even though Catholics believe in evolution - this was just a very sh***y school). I got abstinence only sex-ed, but that's to be expected.

I moved to comprehensive school in Year 9, where they happily taught only evolution, despite the students being 70-80% Muslim. 'Twas good.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:45 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I moved to comprehensive school in Year 9, where they happily taught only evolution, despite the students being 70-80% Muslim. 'Twas good.

If you think about how the world and the Earth evolved - mostly, things don't "just happen". They evolve. We all evolve. And then we make nice worm food.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:45 pm

Tequila wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

If your friend wasn't imposing the prayer on anyone else or being disruptive, it is illegal to interfere with that, even in school, in the United States.

No catch-22. If it's disruptive to the general population of the school, or even to an individual, it's not acceptable. Go build your own school if you want to do that.

If it is not disruptive to anyone else, it is private freedom of religion and cannot be interfered with by law.

I'm not giving you hypotheticals here. They're facts.

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06 Dec 2012, 2:48 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Tequila wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

If your friend wasn't imposing the prayer on anyone else or being disruptive, it is illegal to interfere with that, even in school, in the United States.

The people of this disruptive religion could claim freedom of religion and then claim that they were being oppressed because people were actually discriminating against their religion.

I agree with what you say, by the way. I think freedom from religion is probably more important these days than freedom of religion. What about those of us that don't want to have any religious bibble at all in our daily lives, and are about as religious as the average pebble?

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