Should mentally disabled killers facing death be executed?

Post Reply New Topic

I'm generally against the death penalty, with possible exception of high treason, even then, it should be very hard to get. Beyond stopping an imminent threat or wartime, I really don't think, I lean libertarian on many issues, that the State should have the ability to take a life. I'm not against punishment, if the case warrants it and upon conviction, but I just feel squeamish on "The Man" being able to make someone forfeit one's life that way.

If someone comes into my home with the intent to do harm, then yes, I'd take a life if it stops a threat or if we're invaded, I believe in survival. Even so, let me add, if there is a mistake, there is no way to rectify it after someone is executed.

Last edited by NowhereMan1966 on 19 Feb 2013, 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The U.S had their own slave business, you can't blame it all on europe, and what the hell is an african american who grew up here going to do in africa where they probably don't speak the language or know anything about the cultures in the various countries there.........that would be completely illogical. Not to mention as far as I know you can't deport citizens to countries they aren't from as punishment for a crime.

Are you suggesting that the death penalty could be a fitting punishment for 11-12 year olds?

Further developments, a pair of stays.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/justice/g ... ?hpt=hp_t2

Interestingly, the stays were granted on two different issues, the Georgia court agreeing to hear an argument on the method of administration of lethal injection, while the federal court has agreed to hear the issue of mental retardation. Given Georgia's extremely high bar (relative to other states) on the retardation exception, that will probably be the more interesting argument.

The Death Penalty itself needs the chop. This is, supposedly, the 21st Century...

I'm not sure how I feel about the death penalty in general. I do think that mental capacity should be taken into consideration when sentencing people for crimes. Someone with a psychotic disorder in the grips of a psychotic episode, a child under a certain age , or a person with an intellectual disability do not have the same intact faculties as the average person. IQ tests have been found to be reliable and valid in many scientific studies. They are predictive of outcomes in terms of school achievement and occupational success for the general population. There is a culture fair version of the IQ test which relies less on culture influenced things like vocabulary. There are problems with the test-sure-it's far from perfect but it's the best measure of intellectual capacity we have currently and I think a person with a severe intellectual disability who commits a crime can't be held to the same legal standards as someone without this disability. Yes there has to be an arbitrary cut-off point , like IQ under 70, you can debate where the cut off should be but it's going to be somewhat arbitrary no matter what. Anything in the realm of the neuropsychiatric is going to be somewhat arbitrary, for example if you display symptoms of depression for 2 weeks you're diagnosable with major depression, one day less than 2 weeks and you're not- arbitrary cut-off. I don't think this means we just shouldn't take IQ into consideration.

70 IQ cut off was something the that Henry Goddard pulled out of his arse way back. It has no real significance. it is embarrassing that some jurisdiction would even use that.

Definitely they should assess, not IQ, but ability to comprehend the gravity of their crime(s), and whether were compos mentis.

It is not an exact science, and personally I think death penalty has too many problems with it.

It is my view that civilized Europe likes to bad mouth our killing people for killing people, so they should accept them as refugees, since we are so barbaric. Let their wiasdom and money take care of it.

As for African Americans, who often claim it is all racism and the result of slavery, being sent back to Africa, being set free, is a fate worse than death.

Loss of Civil Rights is the justice system, like being locked in a cage, and loss of the right to vote, own guns, run for public office, after having been released. Loss of Citizenship, being banished from the realm, has a long legal tradition.

It is not set in stone, as the sex offender registery is a new addtion, other things can be added, like leave the country and never come back. People who are deported are made to leave and never return, cannot get a tourist visa, come for education, anything, and face many years in jail if caught returning.

Sex offenders report they cannot find any place to live that is not within a quarter mile of a school, park, or other place when children are present, so live in groups out of town under a bridge.

Caught taking a leak in the bushes, they are registered and regulated for life.

When the same, we are better, people bashed Cuba for being mean, primitive, Castro loaded the contents of jails and mental hospitals on a boat and sent them to Florida and Freedom! America still has some of those locked up.

We deport people who were brought in as small children by illegals, to countries they have never been to, do not speak the language, or understand the culture.

I think we should also deport the ones born here to illegals, for the birthright is only to those who's parents are, "Subject to the jursdiction thereof." If you are born flying over the United States and your parents are Mexican, you land in Canada as a Mexican National. Citizenship comes from the Citizenship of the parents, not the location of birth.

Historically, America and Australia were settled by the contents of British jails. Debtors Prisons, and just swept off the streets and loaded onto ships. Return to England, Hang!

So within our concept of English Law, banishing people has a long and current history.

African Warlords are sent to Europe for crimes against humanity trials, and life in a most comfortable prison, which is a five star hotel for free by African standards.

The CIA sent people to be tortured in black prisons, Sryia, Libya, what I propose is less harsh. I would give them a no reentry passport, a trip to somewhere, with choices, and there are a lot of places where people live on a dollar a day.

It would be a new start in life for them, it would be at a very low cost to us.

What we would save by banishing those who lost their civil rights through their own actions, or those who never had civil rights as their parents were not citizens, can be spent on the poor but honest citizens in education and health care. It would greatly improve our nation.

I think it would be a better life for those banished, than spending the next fifty years in a cell. Our current system cannot be supported much longer. We passed spending more on prisons than on education a while back, and are quickly heading toward more than on education and healthcare.

The worst crime of all is our Justice System, which has an unfunded retirement cost greater than all future government income. To pay that we have to live without government, education, healthcare, because we have made our servants into our masters. They do have the guns, and are trying to have the only guns.

Banishing those in jail, we open cells for illegals, who can be banished in turn, and reduce the need for the Prison Justice System that is eating our future.

I hear that The French Foreign Legion will be hiring soon, there are places for people to make a new start.

We have loss of freedom, lifetime loss of civil rights, so loss of citizenship, being banished, for a term or for life, is nothing unusual in our legal history.

We deport children, young adults, for the crimes of their parents, to countries where they have never been, and do not speak the language. They are dumped in another country without so much as a bottle of water, and with a threat of a long prison term for returning.

All we have to do is declare murder, rape, robbery, as crimes against humanity, and we are good to send them to Europe for trial and punishment. African Warlords have less troops, and kill fewer people, than LA Street Gangs.

Some of his attorneys who have meet Hill have stated thirteen years ago that they thought he was not intellectual impaired due to graduating from high school and serving in the Navy, even being promoted to service. Is it possible for someone with an IQ of 70 to make into any service of the military?

High School, just show up, the Navy would be more picky, and they do test.

IQ tests measure the IQ of those trying to pass, in Hills case, facing death, he had an incentive to fail, and it is hard to get below 70 just for showing up.

As part of a Court Ordered review, he had no incentive to try, and not being executed for failing. What shall I do, I am guilty, they are going to convice me, then they will kill me.

Lawyer, we are going to lose, since you admitted to killing them, were standing there with the weapon, covered in thier blood, and you are not smart enough to fake Mental Illness. All you have is dumb, and for once in your life it can work for you.

The only way you are not going to die for this is flunk the IQ test, score a 60, and be too ret*d to die. He was ret*d, 70 is the cutoff, at 71 no problem killing him. I would give him a bonus point for trying.

IQ has been shown to be reliable measure of intellectual capacity in many studies published in peer reviewed journals. It's the best measure we have, though far from an exact science ,like you said. Pychopaths are known for having no empathy or guilt and being very cunning and able to manipulate the system. They could easily pretend not to understand their crimes...we don't have a foolproof assessment of this either. Of course their compos mentos must be assessed but I think it's important to take IQ into account too. If someone has an IQ of 30 and committed a crime it's safe to say they did not understand the gravity of the crime just like we assume a 7 year old kid wouldn't for legal purposes They don't have the intellectual capacity to understand it.

Yes the cut off point is arbitrary. Anything that is a dimension (intelligence is a dimension , people vary continuously in terms of IQ) has to have an arbitrary cut off point , that's how many neuropsychiatric traits are quantified. It's not perfect but it doesn't mean it isn't valid or the best measure we have. With AS ,why do we have to have 2 traits from social impairment and 1 from repetitive behaviours/interests? They're changing this now but why pick two instead of 1 or 3? Some research is done but in my neuropsychology classes I was taught that the choice of these things is always somewhat arbitrary. Neuropsych diagnoses are based mostly on symptoms,necessarily, which are subjective.

How is it safe?

Why can't a 7 year old have the the capacity to understand a crime? So if a 7 year old tortured a cat, they don't understand that caused it suffering? Of course many will. They can even understand the that suffering has consequences.

I'm sorry but this is just a cultural expectation, and a subjective one. Morality after all is based on societal expectations, and personal boundaries, personality, etc. We just expect the very young to take on less responsibility, but gradually build up that responsibility. Because they are learning things, we excuse more, because we expect them to come good.

Pychopaths can also manipulate the IQ test.

The fact is this understanding the 'gravity' is not something you can put you finger on in is not definable in an experiment. So that fact that something has been in a peer reviewed journal doesn't change that, it is still not definable as a concrete thing so therefore not measurable to compare with other things.

Different criminals are going to think very differently about their crimes that doesn't change the intent or lack of it. Perhaps this is the wrong question, or wrong basis. Other questions like chance of re-offending, or where the best place for them probably should get more weight.



I quote an excerpt from another thread about why the methodology used in psych diagnostic manuals is flawed.



The relationships are presumed, you can't learn what the real relationship is. It is not just a question of 1 or 3 but why those grouping of traits and not others.

^^^'

Exactly neuropych is not an exact science. Why those traits not others?..they're based on symptoms which are by nature subjective. It doesn't]t mean it doesn't have any value and isn't based on some research. IQ tests are the best measure of intellectual capacity we have. A seven year old is not just not guilty because he's learning and growing but because his intellectual capacity is low - the parts of his brain necessary to make informed decisions ect are underdeveloped. When people are in the grips of a psychotic episode they are also incapable of making a proper decision, weighing consequences ect. I believe someone with an intellectual disability should be thought of in this way.


Yes there are problems with psych methodology but they don't make it completely invalid,.


IQ tests have been shown to have validity and reliability cross-culturally, to predict school and occupational success throughout the lifetime and there are culture fair versions of IQ test. They are not perfect but they have been shown to have validity and are the best measure we have.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp55goEW82c[/youtube]

It’s wrong to kill, so we are going to kill you. The death penalty is a major contradiction straight out of the bible (an eye for an eye) it doesn’t make moral sense. Like all manmade laws, we make it up as we go along.

We will never eradicate crime if we just simply kill them responsible. Only by learning what we can from those responsible can we begin to eradicate crime, until then, the world will still remain a wobbly place to live.

I am wondering about what will happen to people like me who have lower IQ than average, have a high sense of right and wrong, but broke the laws anyways.


My old IEP reports stated that I have a lower IQ of 48, etc, but SARC considers me to have borderline intellectual functioning.


If I broke any laws, will I be treated like a normal person?


I have some NT traits and personalities, even though I have ASD, ADHD, lower IQ than average and history of psychological issues.


I still knew from right and wrong when I had a severe psychotic episode, yet I still broke my brother's friend's window, because I was angry ( even though I was still psychotic ).