Capitalism's Destruction of Childhood - By: Dr. Gabor Mate
thomas81 wrote:
None of which circumvent the undeniable fact that however you vary capitalism, you end with unresolvable conflicts in interest when you divide society into economic classes.
All societies present unresolvable conflicts of class. In the Soviet Union, class was established not by access to money, but rather by access to power. Every society has a limiting resource, the possession of which enables its owner to have access to better quality goods and services. The value created by scarcity will always create a market in which some form of price--whether monetary or otherwise--is increased to reflect its scarcity. No society in human history has ever been immune from this.
Quote:
Its telling that capitalism is at the end of its life when its constantly having to validate its position and justify itself against new ideas and alternatives.
No social institution should ever be immune from criticism.
Capitalism, liberty, parliamentary democracy, rule of law: All of these should be required to justify themselves each and every day, and survive as means of well-ordering our societies only so long as a better idea does not come along to replace them.
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visagrunt wrote:
Gabor is an outstanding professional colleague and a friend.
While I don't agree with all of his views, we have many, many shared perspectives, and his insights always provide cause for professional, political or personal introspection.
While I don't agree with all of his views, we have many, many shared perspectives, and his insights always provide cause for professional, political or personal introspection.
Do you really know him IRL as a friend? If so the part I disagree on is the parts where he blames the parents of children for causing things like ADHD. When it really isn't the parents fault, they have no choice in the system we are living in. But I think he may have changed his stance in later years as he got more into the root cause of things. What I am referring to was in a book I can't remember that I read years back, so things can change in time.
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Check out some of my 8bit / Chiptune music -> http://www.8bitKnight.com
The guy basically said nothing more than capitalism is bad in both of those videos which implies something else is a better alternative without naming it.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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Raptor wrote:
The guy basically said nothing more than capitalism is bad in both of those videos which implies something else is a better alternative without naming it.

Not at all. He said "capitalism is bad", sure. But that doesn't mean something is better. It means we need to come up with something better.
fueledbycoffee wrote:
Raptor wrote:
The guy basically said nothing more than capitalism is bad in both of those videos which implies something else is a better alternative without naming it.

Not at all. He said "capitalism is bad", sure. But that doesn't mean something is better. It means we need to come up with something better.
I doubt (more like know) we would ever be able to agree on what's better.
_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson
Raptor wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
Raptor wrote:
The guy basically said nothing more than capitalism is bad in both of those videos which implies something else is a better alternative without naming it.

Not at all. He said "capitalism is bad", sure. But that doesn't mean something is better. It means we need to come up with something better.
I doubt (more like know) we would ever be able to agree on what's better.
I think so as well. I've been trying to come up with some other response, something suggesting some of the ideas that I've had, but based on some of your other posts and the fact that you completely refused to so much as consider the possibility that an improved system could someday exist, I think I won't bother.
For the record, what he said, when he said that capitalism is bad, was that capitalism, as in the system we currently have in this nation, has harmed the family structure, denied the individual, and encouraged strict conformity. This was not the system we had in this country fifty years ago. This was not the capitalism that made this nation great. Ever since this capitalism came about in the 70s and 80s, there has been nothing but decline. I am a capitalist, far more so than most liberals. This is not Adam Smith's vision. This is the literal worship of the corporation, the wealth of nations be damned. If that's what you want, then yes, we can not reach an agreement, because frankly, I think that's absolutely mad.
fueledbycoffee wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
8bitKnight wrote:
I have read about Dr. Gabor Mate and while I don't agree with some of the things he says, but there is some truth about the destruction of society caused by the ruling class that has enslaved us through capitalism. What are your thoughts about this?
Enslaved by capitalism? Where are you chains. And no one is prevented you from "escaping:". What slavery?
ruveyn
Well, you don't need physical chains to be a slave. Countless cult leaders have enslaved people by manipulating their needs and wants to capture their minds. And yes, society does prevent you from escaping, at least from the cycle of work, taxation, and consumption. It isn't literal, and with the recent revival of homesteading, it's become a bit more possible to escape, to go build a ranch somewhere. However, society is increasingly dependent on taking orders. You take orders to pay taxes. You take orders from your boss to work harder for less wage. You take orders to buy a house or rent an apartment, because even to set up a shack in the woods is vagrancy. We are taught, from birth, that the correct way of living is to go to school, go to college, get good grades, and get a job where you sit in a cubicle and put off your dreams until retirement age, when the dreams you can fulfill are limited by the ravages of age. And even that light at the end of the tunnel is increasingly becoming harder to attain, as more and more, social security vanishes. From Kindergarten to dropout age, truancy is a crime. Non-degree jobs are becoming much, much harder to find. There goes your best years. And the rest is working for someone else, for the vast majority of people.
It is slavery. You have no choice. Work or starve. No longer can you go build a hovel somewhere and work the land to sustain yourself, as even feudal peasants could do, though as always they were require to give a portion of their produce to their lord. What you wear and how you present yourself is dictated by company policy. Your wage is not a result of a negotiation between you and the company, but a base wage. You must beg for a raise. And you almost never profit. If you're savvy or lucky, maybe, but most people live paycheck to paycheck, and pray Jesus that when we resign our lease the rent doesn't go up. And before you say, well maybe they should've been smarter and gone to school, some people just can't afford it. Some people screw up. There is a clear class system in this country, and the working class are the same old slaves as ever.
In the days of "slavery", an enormous number of slaves, both white and black, escaped. They did it through suicide. And increasingly, when faced with the soulcrushing anti-individual grind to make someone else money, many young people escape the same way.
But I do agree with this.
RushKing
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visagrunt wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
None of which circumvent the undeniable fact that however you vary capitalism, you end with unresolvable conflicts in interest when you divide society into economic classes.
The value created by scarcity will always create a market in which some form of price--whether monetary or otherwise--is increased to reflect its scarcity. No society in human history has ever been immune from this.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ5Jr2bYS4I[/youtube]
I'm not a hardline anarchist communist anymore, I'm just an anarchist with communistic leanings. The presence of some sort of price system doesn't mean capitalism. Capitalism can be defined by private ownership of production and absentee land ownership. Without those two characteristics you don't have capitalism. So although I don't believe everything can be free in a while, I do believe a large number of goods can be free. I'm in favor of a semi parecon, semi gift economy. To say capitalism is all the world has is to ignore a lot of history. Capitalism is only 200 years old, It's not a law of nature, it's a result of mass coercion by state, and many great alternatives have been practiced since then.
8bitKnight wrote:
Do you really know him IRL as a friend? If so the part I disagree on is the parts where he blames the parents of children for causing things like ADHD. When it really isn't the parents fault, they have no choice in the system we are living in. But I think he may have changed his stance in later years as he got more into the root cause of things. What I am referring to was in a book I can't remember that I read years back, so things can change in time.
I certainly do.
I think you need to be careful with the word, "blame." That's not how I would say that he thinks. He takes a view that healthy mental development in childhood requires the presence of nurturing adults. He doesn't "blame" parents for being unable to provide that, but rather, he criticizes a system in which parents are ill-equipped to provide that.
It's a subtle distinction, but that sort of subtlety would be important to him.
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BeautifulTechno
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BeautifulTechno wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Without capitalism you'd be living in a cave right now
Do you think that Capitalism is the only route to economic development?What viable alternative do you offer? Communism has been demonstrated to not work in the long term, and Socialism seems to dis-incentivise innovation and invention.
[opinion=mine]
Besides, it may not be Capitalism per se that "destroys" childhood, but the rampant greed of consumerism that places material ownership above interpersonal relationships that brainwashes children into believing that toys are more important than friends and family.
Simple solutions: Eliminate Christmas as anything other than a quaint religious observance (no more Christmas commercialism), eliminate commercials and advertisements of toys and other childhood gadgets, prohibit children from using mobile communications devices and the Internet before their 18th birthdays, and mandate a minimum of 2 hours each day of group sports for children between the ages of 5 and 18.
[/opinion]
Ah, yes ... Authoritarian control of childhood development ... now that's the ticket!
BeautifulTechno
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Fnord wrote:
BeautifulTechno wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Without capitalism you'd be living in a cave right now
Do you think that Capitalism is the only route to economic development?What viable alternative do you offer? Communism has been demonstrated to not work in the long term, and Socialism seems to dis-incentivise innovation and invention.
[opinion=mine]
Besides, it may not be Capitalism per se that "destroys" childhood, but the rampant greed of consumerism that places material ownership above interpersonal relationships that brainwashes children into believing that toys are more important than friends and family.
Simple solutions: Eliminate Christmas as anything other than a quaint religious observance (no more Christmas commercialism), eliminate commercials and advertisements of toys and other childhood gadgets, prohibit children from using mobile communications devices and the Internet before their 18th birthdays, and mandate a minimum of 2 hours each day of group sports for children between the ages of 5 and 18.
[/opinion]
Ah, yes ... Authoritarian control of childhood development ... now that's the ticket!
You're absolutely right. I'm pretty much refering to the raw Capitalism - but hey, don't you actually believe that Capitalism is behind consumerism, when it comes to alienating and toys?
And do you think it is feasible to eliminate Christmas commercialism if private companies are the main engine of Capitalism? Yes, if these companies wouldn't be "working" for a Capitalist state, then that would be a concrete idea.
Hold on, are you basically saying that children should not keep up the pace of technology until they are 18? Well, in fact alienation is a serious problem, but should we be that radical?
BeautifulTechno wrote:
Hold on, are you basically saying that children should not keep up the pace of technology until they are 18? Well, in fact alienation is a serious problem, but should we be that radical?
It can't be both ways - either children are allowed to be children, or they learn to cope in a world that relies more on technology than social interaction.
Tensu wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Tensu wrote:
I don't want 99.99% of what I see advertised.
That's only because you're not a NT.
NTs have free will too. And if there exists a person who lusts after every possession they see, I doubt getting rid of ads would help them significantly.
I already said we can see through an individual advert and dismiss it, but what is the effect on a child growing up seeing hundreds of adverts every day. They are basically being told: "You are not good enough without this!", "Your life will be better if you have this!" all the time. It is subliminal messaging. It is no wonder a lot of people grow up dissatisfied.
Robdemanc wrote:
Tensu wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Tensu wrote:
I don't want 99.99% of what I see advertised.
That's only because you're not a NT.Agreed. But this is commercialism, not capitalism.
