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Tobacco Taxes

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AgentPalpatine
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21 Apr 2013, 2:36 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I can't talk about the USA, but in this country since smokers contribute a hefty price to the NHS by giving themselves smoking related serious illnesses I think its only right they pay the associated tax to reimburse the public purse.


They do. Smokers actually contribute double in revenue from the NHS than what they actually take out.

Yet you still want to persecute them.


Tobacco has been heavily taxed almost since it hit Europe after the Columbian Exchange. Small, easy to track the manufacture, considered a luxury, it's perfect for heavy excise taxation.

In the US, it's a little different, since taxation is broken between so many levels. We don't have the tradition of so many individual item taxes or a VAT. The excise taxes over here are traditionally limited to a handful of items, liqour, tobbaco, etc.


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21 Apr 2013, 6:10 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
If we don't tax "lesser evils", like alcohol and cigarettes, then we'd have to find the money from somewhere else, or cut vital services.


Yes. So?
Why should people who smoke pay MORE than their fair share? I'm not against them paying some extra tax to cover their possibly more expensive healthcare costs. But if they tax them more than that just to make some government budget balanced they are discriminated against.
(and I don't like cigarettes, just saying)



thomas81
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21 Apr 2013, 6:14 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I can't talk about the USA, but in this country since smokers contribute a hefty price to the NHS by giving themselves smoking related serious illnesses I think its only right they pay the associated tax to reimburse the public purse.


They do. Smokers actually contribute double in revenue from the NHS than what they actually take out. Smokers are actually subsidising the healthcare of other people.

Yet you still want to persecute them.


Yes, because that is what is happening. Smokers are being persecuted.

Next, armies of non smokers will be tearing up floorboards and loft spaces, looking for smokers to send to concentration camps. One of the smokers will be a young girl that will write a famous diary about her experiences.


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Dox47
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21 Apr 2013, 6:50 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Next, armies of non smokers will be tearing up floorboards and loft spaces, looking for smokers to send to concentration camps. One of the smokers will be a young girl that will write a famous diary about her experiences.


I don't think that word means what you think it means...

Also, Godwin much?


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ruveyn
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21 Apr 2013, 7:43 pm

Rauchen macht frei!



AgentPalpatine
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21 Apr 2013, 7:51 pm

How on WrongPlanet does a discussion of excise taxes turn to Godwin's law in 19 posts?


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Last edited by AgentPalpatine on 21 Apr 2013, 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raptor
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21 Apr 2013, 7:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Rauchen macht frei!


Smoking makes freedom?


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fueledbycoffee
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21 Apr 2013, 9:28 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:
How on WrongPlanet does a discussion of excise taxes turn to Godwin's law in 19 posts?


I've stopped being amazed by it. In my time, I've seen threads on everything from politics to video games to who has the best burger turn to Godwin's. Why should this be any different? :lol:



AgentPalpatine
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21 Apr 2013, 10:04 pm

fueledbycoffee wrote:
AgentPalpatine wrote:
How on WrongPlanet does a discussion of excise taxes turn to Godwin's law in 19 posts?


I've stopped being amazed by it. In my time, I've seen threads on everything from politics to video games to who has the best burger turn to Godwin's. Why should this be any different? :lol:


The best Burger? How on WrongPlanet......

The best Burger is an Asp-burger, of course.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt219490.html


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21 Apr 2013, 10:20 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
AgentPalpatine wrote:
How on WrongPlanet does a discussion of excise taxes turn to Godwin's law in 19 posts?


I've stopped being amazed by it. In my time, I've seen threads on everything from politics to video games to who has the best burger turn to Godwin's. Why should this be any different? :lol:


The best Burger? How on WrongPlanet......

The best Burger is an Asp-burger, of course.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt219490.html


Can't remember which forum I was part of at the time. But someone was asking everyone's opinion about what brand of burger was best. Someone said they should consider vegetarian options, like Boca. Then someone else came on and said that Hitler was a vegetarian. The rest is history.

Only on the internet...



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21 Apr 2013, 10:44 pm

trollcatman wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
If we don't tax "lesser evils", like alcohol and cigarettes, then we'd have to find the money from somewhere else, or cut vital services.


Yes. So?
Why should people who smoke pay MORE than their fair share? I'm not against them paying some extra tax to cover their possibly more expensive healthcare costs. But if they tax them more than that just to make some government budget balanced they are discriminated against.
(and I don't like cigarettes, just saying)


In this country, 80% of the price of a packet of 20 cigarettes is tax. Seriously.

A packet of 20 cigarettes would be less than £3 without all the tax. It's getting on for £7.50 a packet.

A lot of people simply stock up when they go abroad these days, and I don't blame them for not wanting to fund their own demonisation.



AgentPalpatine
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22 Apr 2013, 10:36 am

Tequila wrote:
In this country, 80% of the price of a packet of 20 cigarettes is tax. Seriously.

A packet of 20 cigarettes would be less than £3 without all the tax. It's getting on for £7.50 a packet.

A lot of people simply stock up when they go abroad these days, and I don't blame them for not wanting to fund their own demonisation.


I'm not sure how it works over your way, but over here, Tobacco taxes seriously arn't considered "taxes" by most of society, and allow states to raise revenue without "raising taxes" (the most honest call it "not raising general taxes").

Tobacco's been subject to this sort of thing since it came to Europe, and since they can now digitially track packs from manufacture to retail sale, it's easy to tax. New York City was the one who came up with stamps, and the entire US has pretty much gotten in on it since then.


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22 Apr 2013, 11:23 am

AgentPalpatine wrote:
Tequila wrote:
In this country, 80% of the price of a packet of 20 cigarettes is tax. Seriously.

A packet of 20 cigarettes would be less than £3 without all the tax. It's getting on for £7.50 a packet.

A lot of people simply stock up when they go abroad these days, and I don't blame them for not wanting to fund their own demonisation.


I'm not sure how it works over your way, but over here, Tobacco taxes seriously arn't considered "taxes" by most of society, and allow states to raise revenue without "raising taxes" (the most honest call it "not raising general taxes").

Tobacco's been subject to this sort of thing since it came to Europe, and since they can now digitially track packs from manufacture to retail sale, it's easy to tax. New York City was the one who came up with stamps, and the entire US has pretty much gotten in on it since then.


How can anyone consider a tobacco tax not a tax? Even if they put a different name on it it is still a tax, Of course it is different from some other taxes because this one is more or less avoidable (don't buy it).
And if I were a politician claiming a tobacco tax is better than other taxation I wouldn't feel so good about myself. The extra taxes on tobacco, alcohol and fuel/energy are very regressive. Poor people also often smoke and drink more. I'll rephrase it as if I were a leftist: The tobacco tax is an attack on the proletariat!



Tequila
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22 Apr 2013, 11:32 am

trollcatman wrote:
How can anyone consider a tobacco tax not a tax? Even if they put a different name on it it is still a tax, Of course it is different from some other taxes because this one is more or less avoidable (don't buy it).
And if I were a politician claiming a tobacco tax is better than other taxation I wouldn't feel so good about myself. The extra taxes on tobacco, alcohol and fuel/energy are very regressive. Poor people also often smoke and drink more. I'll rephrase it as if I were a leftist: The tobacco tax is an attack on the proletariat!


Agreed. The left-wingers who agree with punitive taxation on alcohol and tobacco are harming people who aren't well-off most - you know, the people whose interests they claim to have at heart.

A middle-class or quite well-off family won't be hit by yet another tax rise on a bottle of wine - they can easily afford it. People on low incomes who like the odd bottle of cheap grog will suffer far more, though. And in any cases, they'll cut back on other essentials in order so that they can still enjoy their pleasures.

Much of the left can't help shooting themselves in the foot by making themselves massively unpopular with their own traditional voter base though, by trying to force their regular small pleasures either out of existence (the smoking ban) or by making it increasingly expensive (alcohol, tobacco).



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22 Apr 2013, 12:30 pm

fueledbycoffee wrote:
The argument used most often to support this is that a smoker will invariably get sick, and cost the state money. Yet, according to the American Lung Association, an individual smoker will incur about $4,260 in health -related expenditures ... That's also without figuring how much more smokers pay in health insurance.


The real question here is how much will the State and Federal governments incur in costs because of your smoking? Medicare, Medicaid, etc. That, plus 2nd hand smoke can cause health problems for other people.

Also, is that $4,260 the out-of-pocket expense to the smoker (i.e. paying insurance deductables for smoking related care) or is that the true cost of smoking related care - i.e. what the smoker and his/her insurance company pays? Because, frankly, $4,260 over the lifetime of a smoker either sounds like someone who did not smoke their whole life, or just seems very low because a) various cancers are prevalant among chronic smokers, and b) other health related issues like emphazima, other lung issues, heart disease, etc. and its just hard to believe that total smoking related medical costs for someone who smokes their whole life is really that low.



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22 Apr 2013, 12:53 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
The argument used most often to support this is that a smoker will invariably get sick, and cost the state money. Yet, according to the American Lung Association, an individual smoker will incur about $4,260 in health -related expenditures ... That's also without figuring how much more smokers pay in health insurance.


The real question here is how much will the State and Federal governments incur in costs because of your smoking? Medicare, Medicaid, etc. That, plus 2nd hand smoke can cause health problems for other people.

Also, is that $4,260 the out-of-pocket expense to the smoker (i.e. paying insurance deductables for smoking related care) or is that the true cost of smoking related care - i.e. what the smoker and his/her insurance company pays? Because, frankly, $4,260 over the lifetime of a smoker either sounds like someone who did not smoke their whole life, or just seems very low because a) various cancers are prevalant among chronic smokers, and b) other health related issues like emphazima, other lung issues, heart disease, etc. and its just hard to believe that total smoking related medical costs for someone who smokes their whole life is really that low.


American Lung Association Source Link wrote:
Cigarette smoking is the number one cause of preventable disease and death worldwide. Smoking-related diseases claim over 393,000 American lives each year. Smoking cost the United States over $193 billion in 2004, including $97 billion in lost productivity and $96 billion in direct health care expenditures, or an average of $4,260 per adult smoker.1


Consider that not every smoker has health problems, and some smokers have a great deal. That's not exactly what my health care might cost, but if you divide up that $96 Billion between all known American smokers, that's what it comes out to.

Secondhand smoke led to us being forced outside. As I said in my initial post, that's fine. When one is outside, the only way to consistently get enough secondhand smoke to cause problems is to basically stand extremely close to a smoker on an extremely consistent basis. It's about the same as bad gas. It might smell like crap, but unless you're in an enclosed space, not a health hazard.