The first EVER anti-domestic violence ad in Saudi Arabia

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thomas81
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28 Apr 2013, 7:52 pm

Tequila wrote:

Tu quoque fallacy. Also, thanks for actually shielding Islam from criticism yet again without actually dealing with the points raised. I never said that they were "evil Muslims". We, in the West, have only fairly recently started to treat women like human beings ourselves.

People like you who try to deflect domestic violence - any domestic violence - are worthy of contempt.

Its less about shielding islam and calling out the hypocrisy. This is selective feminism; ie when it is politically expedient for you.

Tequila wrote:

We do still have remaining problems in the West when it comes to women's rights. I would like to see women being able to serve in full combat roles if they can pass the tests. (By the way, Israel is a world pioneer in empowering women in their army.)

So was Gadaffi's Libya; another predominantly muslim nation you have decried as evil despite its socialist precedences. Most of his personal bodyguards were women, as were many fighter pilots in the former air force.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdxk4yVRARU[/youtube]

Does that excuse their shortcomings?

Tequila wrote:

As for unequal pay - I believe that it's largely about individual circumstances and the jobs women choose (and it can and does work in women's favour at times) rather than gender. Older people are actually paid less (and this is wrong), but it's a relic of a different time. The pay gap used to exist, but it is dying out.

Rubbish, the days of voluntary workplace gender stereotyping are dead and buried.

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Last edited by thomas81 on 28 Apr 2013, 7:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Tequila
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28 Apr 2013, 7:52 pm

Kjas wrote:

The bolded and underlined part is certainly true.

KSA has been an incredibly important geographically, politically and economically to western interests in the area, and to control and stability over the area by those interests.
It is one of the many reasons that so many of the neighbouring states hate KSA with a passion.

Realistically, until western interests refuse to do business with, or support such things - I am afraid that not much is going to change.
Right now that is impossible, as much of the current war effort depends on the geopolitical position and stability of KSA.

I can't deny this either. The West is dependent on Saudi oil, and that's why soul-crushing Wahhabi Islam has been allowed to gain such a foothold in the West.

Tequila
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28 Apr 2013, 7:58 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Its less about shielding islam and calling out the hypocrisy. This is selective feminism; ie when it is politically expedient for you.

There is no hypocrisy. I believe in basic human rights for all women. I haven't heard you speak up against this with any degree of sincerity.

As far as religion-based gender denial of rights goes, Islamic denial of the rights of women is the most immediately and crushingly serious - followed, no doubt, by Catholicism and Christianity in general. That's a fact. It does not stop there being a whole lot of other mistreatment of women that needs covering, particularly in Africa and in Asia. When I find such stories, I shall post them. Happy?

thomas81 wrote:

So was Gadaffi's Libya; most of his personal bodyguards were women, as were many fighter pilots in the former air force.

No, but it does make him surprisingly forward-thinking in that sense. However, there were claims that five of these women were raped by Qadhafi, his sons, and his entourage.

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28 Apr 2013, 8:03 pm

Tequila wrote:

I can't deny this either. The West is dependent on Saudi oil, and that's why soul-crushing Wahhabi Islam has been allowed to gain such a foothold in the West.

Ironically, the fact that the west supports them when they have been on the ground physically, actually helped women's right and issues in the past (during the gulf war of 90 and 91).

During that time, women started driving, and some went around unveiled. They had protests and raised awareness for their cause. Many feminists in KSA were incredibly happy, because for the first time, it looked as though they had a chance at progress, something that they had been working on since Faisal's reign, as his wife was a big supporter of women's rights, and it was under her influence that education for women was allowed.

But when the west support the regime, while they are not physically present, things seem to stay the same, or sometimes even go backwards.

After they left, the stoning's and other forms of punishment started. Things went back to the way that they always had been, and anyone involved was punished severely, the crackdown was one of the worst in modern history concerning women rights. The backlash and fallout was enormous.

I think the west desperately needs to look at the role they play in all of this. You cannot condemn them on one hand, and on the other, support them anyway, regardless of what they do.

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Tequila
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28 Apr 2013, 9:19 pm

Kjas wrote:

You cannot condemn them on one hand, and on the other, support them anyway, regardless of what they do.

I don't. The sooner we find a viable alternative to relying on Middle East oil, the better for us. Then the Saudis can go back to poverty because without natural resources like oil that are being sold worldwide, they'd all be totally starving, because let's face it, they have little other practical exports that people - especially non-Muslims - actually want. To a large extent, it's the West's money and influence that is keeping the Saudi regime afloat and stifling change. (Mind you, the change that would come at the moment would be worse for the West than what they have now.)

The West is between a rock and a hard place at the moment. We need other solutions.

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28 Apr 2013, 10:20 pm

Tequila wrote:

Others have been working on solutions such as that, particularly in regards to dependency.

Brazil has developed ethanol fuel, derived from sugarcane, and has implemented it nationwide - almost all cars sold there now have "flexi fuel" tanks, designed to run off petrol, ethanol, or any percentage mixture of the two. Part of this was environmental, but most of it was due to the unstable political and economical situations in the middle east which can cause oil prices to fluctuate wildly at times, which for a developing economy can be extremely hard to pull through intact.

Many countries have decided against following this example, although others have cautiously started to follow suit - for a variety of reasons some political, some economical. Others have continued to try to create and make do with corn ethanol instead of sugarcane ethanol, which due to the energy output, isn't really viable economically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_by_country

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Tensu
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29 Apr 2013, 12:00 am

Well that's quite a pleasant surprise.

Declension
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29 Apr 2013, 4:10 am

You know Tequila, I think I finally figured out what bothers me about your posts. It's not that you are wrong. Actually, you are quite often right. It's that you always seem to take the easy option of criticising "the other", instead of criticising the negative parts of your own culture. Now you might respond by saying that the other culture is worse than your culture, and so you should prioritise criticising the other culture.

But here's the thing. If you're going to talk about "priorities", it seems to imply that you are trying to achieve something. But when you criticise "the other", you don't actually achieve anything at all, except possibly the negative effect of making the other culture associate criticism of their culture with smug imperialism.

Tequila
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29 Apr 2013, 4:26 am

Kjas wrote:

Brazil has developed ethanol fuel, derived from sugarcane, and has implemented it nationwide - almost all cars sold there now have "flexi fuel" tanks, designed to run off petrol, ethanol, or any percentage mixture of the two. Part of this was environmental, but most of it was due to the unstable political and economical situations in the middle east which can cause oil prices to fluctuate wildly at times, which for a developing economy can be extremely hard to pull through intact.

Many countries have decided against following this example, although others have cautiously started to follow suit - for a variety of reasons some political, some economical.

Why have other countries decided against following this example?

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29 Apr 2013, 4:26 am

thomas81 wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Its less about shielding islam and calling out the hypocrisy. This is selective feminism; ie when it is politically expedient for you.

Yes, there are problems in the west. However, at least women in the west are allowed to work, at least they don't get stoned to death for being raped, at least they don't get their clitorises cut off as little girls, at least they don't get murdered in honour killings, etc, should I go on? I'm sorry if you feel that the gender inequality is just as bad in the west as it is in the Middle East but the facts don't bear that out.

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29 Apr 2013, 4:28 am

Declension wrote:

Hey Declension, read my above post. It applies to you too.

Declension
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29 Apr 2013, 4:33 am

Jono wrote:

Declension wrote:

Hey Declension, read my above post. It applies to you too.

Right back at you. As I said in the bolded text, I am willing to grant you that your culture is better than their culture. But why does that make it a moral imperative to only criticise their culture? It's your culture that is the one you can actually do something about.

Think about it in terms of triage. Imagine you are an emergency responder, and there are two victims in front of you. The one on the left is not as badly injured as the one on the right. But you know that it is impossible for you to save the life of the one on the right. So what should you do? You should help the one on the left, of course.

Jono
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29 Apr 2013, 5:14 am

Declension wrote:

Jono wrote:

Declension wrote:

Hey Declension, read my above post. It applies to you too.

Dealing with stuff at home doesn't mean we have to refrain from criticising those other cultures. Whenever someone replies with "but the west has inequality too", it's usually because they want to shield those other cultures from any criticism. They can do as they as they please apparently, while we must first sort out our own stuff before we're allowed to call them out, it's not an either or.

Tequila
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29 Apr 2013, 5:16 am

Jono wrote:

It's called the Tu quoque fallacy.

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29 Apr 2013, 5:25 am

Tequila wrote:

In the West, women can wear whatever they want (unless they are in an abusive relationship or have an abusive family)

Not really true. Women are still required to adhere to a certain dress code in public, and it's still stricter than for men. Unless you're arguing that it's okay to require women to cover their boobs but not to cover their hair, in which case, what's the reason for that distinction?

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29 Apr 2013, 5:32 am

Cei wrote:

The breasts, bottom, vagina, penis and so on are considered the most sexual parts of the body. The hair doesn't really have any sexual functions.

We don't have a dress code as such apart from the fact that some clothes are needed - that one isn't allowed to go topless or nude, but some nude beaches do allow this. In England, there is a strong social taboo against going nude but those people that do are often greeted with laughter, sexual interest and derision rather than aggression and violence (even though public nudity is illegal). In Scotland, it's a different matter.

I blame religion for it. The Christian religion, in our case. Don't think that I consider this purely an Islamic issue or that I blame Islam for it. Not at all. It has been a feature of all three of the Abrahamic religions, and in many other parts of the world too. It's a 'religion' problem, not an Islamic one. Islam is just the most severe about it at this point in time. We're not that too far ahead of Islam in some respects, relatively speaking, you know.

In fact, some European cities actually allow public nudity.

Last edited by Tequila on 29 Apr 2013, 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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