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marshall
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09 May 2013, 10:36 pm

Jacoby wrote:
marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
marshall wrote:
Healthcare costs go up and up because people want to leach more and more profit off the sick without really helping them. Of course, blame Obama for this and the fact that the health insurance industry blocked any reform that would actually lower costs. What a sick game.

Blocked what? The 'public option'? Obama's healthcare reform was always a payoff to the insurance companies, the 'public option' was never really on the table. The dems couldn't even pass that thru their own caucus despite having supermajorities in the house and senate.

You mean the conservative DINO's who were in the pockets of the insurance industry. They might as well have been Republicans. The notion that true progressives had a super-majority and just couldn't get their act together is a joke.

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Cost control was never really a topic of discussion but rather universal coverage. How humanitarian, now people who neither want, need, or can afford health insurance are going to be legally mandated into pay for it. A lot of people who were happy with their insurance are now going to forced off, a straight up lie from what Obama said during his permanent campaign for it in 09/10. Maybe they aren't lying, nobody had any clue what was in that monstrous bill and these aren't people known for competence. The whole thing is a disaster and I wouldn't be surprised to see parts of the law repealed by the end of the decade.

Nobody truly knows that they don't need health insurance. You may think you're healthy but you could just be lucky. In any case, if you have a major catastrophe you will probably get some kind of treatment (likely expensive) whether you can afford to pay for it or not. If you didn't buy insurance and can't afford to pay you just file for bankruptcy. The hospital doesn't get their money so they raise the price for everyone who does pay. That's why the whole not buying insurance is a drain on the system. Unless you just let uninsured people who need expensive emergency treatment beg for non-existent charity or die like Ron Paul would probably suggest.

There was never any appetite amongst the vast majority of the Democratic caucus to pursue actual socialized medicine, it simply wasn't a winning issue. Conservatives, DLC, most progressives all knew it. Only the far left of the party was calling for it. Obamacare wiped out a democratic supermajority that was suppose to last a generation, what would of going for socializd medicine have done if they had the votes to do it? The facts are the majority of Americans were perfectly happy with their health insurance and have no interest in changing it.(not that they don't want everyone covered but as long as it doesn't effect them) Giving lip service to socialized medicine may energize the activists during a campaign but once it actually came down to governing reality set in. I imagine Obama kinda wishes he didn't come in with such huge majorities in both houses so his attempt as grand compromiser might of been better received. Saying that, Obama has taken a stark partisan turn now that he doesn't have to run for reelection but unfortunately for him those majorities are gone and he's essentially a lameduck president unless he can somehow pull out a miracle in 2014(unlikely)

Tell that to people when they happened to get sick, lose their job, or get dumped by their insurance. Also, the most unpopular part of the bill was the private mandate, i.e. the "compromise". The majority of people who are not republicans and fanatical anti-government free-marketists like yourself would have preferred "socialized medicine" ( which works just fine for the majority of the world, not just "socialist Europe" ).

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Not having health insurance is a risk but it's worth it versus paying the inordinate price of health insurance for some people. Once I'm off my parent's insurance which will be relatively soon, I'd probably wouldn't purchase it for awhile if given the choice. I have no real physical ailments past or present, take no medication, most of my family is healthy, I don't have a hazardous job, no dangerous hobbies, rarely get sick, I haven't even been to an actual doctor in years. Accidents happen and you never know what freak ailment can come along but I'm just playing the odds. I don't know how they're going to make people that can't afford health insurance pay for it, I know there is suppose to exchanges and all types of other stuff but in the end it's still money out of my pocket however much it is. What the government considers poor and what poor actually is are two different things.

And if something major happens you will get care no matter what even if you're uninsured and can't pay for it. Are you prepared to sign a waver that you don't want an ambulance if something happens to you while you're uninsured? I think people who can afford but refuse to buy insurance should be required to sign a "let me die in the street" waver.

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The point is that the issue with healthcare in this country isn't coverage, it's the cost. There is no reason for routine procedures and check ups to cost as much as they do, catastrophic and chronic care is an issue and should be addressed on its own instead of a one size fits all solution. Universal coverage is just a massive boon for the insurance industry, corporatism 101. What we got out of Obama's reform was the worst possible scenario, even socialized medicine makes more sense.

And why does it cost so much more in the US for the exact same treatment you can in any country with "socialized medicine". Also why are you such a fanboy of the status quo that is anything but a "competitive free market". Since when do doctors and specialists put up billboards advertizing their costs to the public and competing? That's just not how it f*****g works. You go to the doctor and they have no idea what it costs until they send you the bill (or charge your insurance). Also, you don't have time to shop around when you're sick. The idea that the same market forces will act as a price check for medical costs is absurd. Medical prices are hugely inelastic and uncompetitive due to lack of reasonable choice and lack of information on the part of the consumer. Of course the people getting rich off the sick like it that way. Our entire system is one big opportunist racket driven by greed more than anything else.



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10 May 2013, 5:04 am

The reality is a lack of profit centers, and a growing control of Government. Defense, Finance, Health Care, have taken over.

This leads to wars, Mortgage fraud, and fat people.

Most countries look to the health and education of their whole population as the means of economic development, the US looks at jails, cash cows for the medical establishment, housing being a bank profit center, and constant wars, which are not wars, just killing people for practice.

It has gone beyond just making money, it now consumes the national taxes, and the value of money held by other people, and their assets, houses.

It worked, till the well ran dry. Less property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, are the result of looting the public.

This leaves spending depending on creating money, which speeds up the process of making money worthless when only the big industries have any money.

Social Security would be more than sound if it applied to all income, a cutoff at $100,000 makes no sense, because a person making $200,000, would not be damaged paying another $15,000, just as they are not damaged paying the income tax.

Taxes would be less, with one class of Income. Income is income, no Capital Gains, Carried Interest, just income. A complex Tax Code drives investment, not a rational plan of investment.

We do need a prison system, and it should be hard labor, picking crops, working in slaughter houses, all of the jobs that excuse illegals. Some, due to their behavior, should have to work in the lion enclosure.

Labor, plus education, plus pay, will set them up to become productive citizens upon release. More than two thirds take a life of crime and jail as a career. They are expensive, and return customers should be moved into harder jobs closer to the lion enclosure.

Health care should be a shared venture, the obease cost a lot, they should pay by the pound, and from grammer school have their weight be a factor. Running all day and eating rabbit food would reduce our long term health costs.

National Health Care is needed. Dental care predicts a lot of other health problems, and just like vaccines, childhood care prevents a much worse situation. Health screenings from early childhood, diet, exercize, dental care, all of their shots, produces a healthy generation.

Preventive care is cheap, and would produce good medical jobs. Investment in the next generation is money well spent.

We need to come to terms with population. Examples are, we could become like Europe, or China, India, or Africa. I think them all examples of things to avoid. We can manage our land with less people, and reach a higher standard of living, health, education.

As far as endless growth, we have run out of room, resources,and technology makes more people nothing but a problem.

There is no profit in producing a better future, no lobby to give the money to buy Congress, but it is the only reasonable choice.

We need a Third Party, based on Common Sense, with a vision of a future we would want.

The existing system creates disasters that only they can save you from. Their fix is always give more to those who give them money, and take money and freedom from the masses.

I may write up the platform and post it on Kickstarter.



Jacoby
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10 May 2013, 1:39 pm

marshall wrote:
Tell that to people when they happened to get sick, lose their job, or get dumped by their insurance. Also, the most unpopular part of the bill was the private mandate, i.e. the "compromise". The majority of people who are not republicans and fanatical anti-government free-marketists like yourself would have preferred "socialized medicine" ( which works just fine for the majority of the world, not just "socialist Europe" ).


And if something major happens you will get care no matter what even if you're uninsured and can't pay for it. Are you prepared to sign a waver that you don't want an ambulance if something happens to you while you're uninsured? I think people who can afford but refuse to buy insurance should be required to sign a "let me die in the street" waver.

and in any country with "socialized medicine". Also why are you such a fanboy of the status quo that is anything but a "competitive free market". Since when do doctors and specialists put up billboards advertizing their costs to the public and competing? That's just not how it f***ing works. You go to the doctor and they have no idea what it costs until they send you the bill (or charge your insurance). Also, you don't have time to shop around when you're sick. The idea that the same market forces will act as a price check for medical costs is absurd. Medical prices are hugely inelastic and uncompetitive due to lack of reasonable choice and lack of information on the part of the consumer. Of course the people getting rich off the sick like it that way. Our entire system is one big opportunist racket driven by greed more than anything else.


Tell what to? I do not deny there are issues with healthcare in this country, I believe it is the cost.

People that pay lip service to the 'free market'(Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, etc) may of preferred the mandate, most people of my ilk recognize it as corporatism.

A 'let me die in the street' waiver seems rather harsh, I don't believe there are any people that purposely refuse to purchase health insurance because they know they'll be treated anyways. I would imagine most don't buy it because they can't afford to pay for it. Am I suppose to live in a ghetto flop house in order to afford to pay for health insurance? If this 'mandate' is a tax, it's a tax directly aimed at the working poor and middle class. How about that class warfare?

I am not a 'fanboy' of the status-quo and recognize that are healthcare system is anything but a free market. Our government spends more on healthcare per person than any country in the world by a far amount, the same with education. When I say that the vast majority of Americans are happy with their healthcare I say that as a matter of fact not personal opinion. I will say the actual quality of care in the US is second to none and that socialized medicine cannot deliver the same quality of care.



Jacoby
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14 May 2013, 1:29 am

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Internal cost estimates from 17 of the nation's largest insurance companies indicate that health insurance premiums will grow an average of 100 percent under Obamacare, and that some will soar more than 400 percent, crushing the administration's goal of affordability.

New regulations, policies, taxes, fees and mandates are the reason for the unexpected "rate shock," according to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which released a report Monday based on internal documents provided by the insurance companies. The 17 companies include Aetna, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Kaiser Foundation.

The report found that individuals will face "premium increases of nearly 100 percent on average, with potential highs eclipsing 400 percent. Meanwhile, small businesses can expect average premium increases in the small group market of up to 50 percent, with potential highs over 100 percent."

One company said that new participants in the individual market could see a premium increase of 413 percent when new requirements on age rating and required benefits are taken into account, said the report. "The average yearly cost for a new customer in the individual market grows from $1,896 to $3,708 -- a $1,812 cost increase," it added.

The key reasons for the surge in premiums include providing wider services than people are now paying for and adding less healthy people to the roles of insured, said the report.

It concluded: "Despite promises that the law will lower costs, [Obamacare] will in fact cause the premiums of many Americans to spike substantially. The broken promises are numerous, and the empirical data reveal that many Americans, from recent college graduates to older adults, will not be able to afford the law's higher costs."

link


what a disaster



mikassyna
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14 May 2013, 4:45 am

I have read that many businesses will further reduce hours per worker or reduce number of employees so that they will not be responsible for providing medical coverage.



marshall
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14 May 2013, 10:37 am

mikassyna wrote:
I have read that many businesses will further reduce hours per worker or reduce number of employees so that they will not be responsible for providing medical coverage.

Wouldn't be a problem if businesses didn't have to pay medical coverage. It only happened that way because of pressure from organized labor. If government just subsidized individual plans so everyone could afford coverage it wouldn't have happened that way. Even super-duper-capitalist Singapore subsidizes coverage on a sliding scale. Obamacare == The old Republican model (e.g. Romneycare) == Handouts to enrich the healthcare industry tycoons/leeches.



androbot2084
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14 May 2013, 11:31 am

is socialized medicine biblical?



catsup
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18 May 2013, 6:31 pm

Insurance is not equivalent to health.

Insurance is what you pay to the guys who come to burn down your store.

Doctors have to follow complicated procedures to prescribe, code, diagnose...
The procedures are not medically pertinent.
The complications intend to provide rational for denying payment.

To afford Healthcare, start by limiting it to those who care about health.
Sorry, I'm feeling hostile. :?



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19 May 2013, 2:12 am

mikassyna wrote:
Although this is a noble theory, in practice it would be a disaster and be reminiscent of communist Russia. Everyone had awful socialized medicine, waiting on a list to obtain treatment, while the rich paid for private doctors and got first-class service. A nationalized system would make the disparity in healthcare worse. It is not sustainable the way the system is structured. Physicians would have to have free medical education and not need to spend several hundred thousand dollars on malpractice insurance in order to be able to maintain a living, staff, and overhead costs. Obamacare is a political band-aid that is made out of tissue paper.


Why do people in the U.S. keep calling affordable, publicly-funded health coverage 'socialised medicine'? The scenario depicted in mikassyna's contribution (above), comes across as pure TeaBagger scaremongering, because where I live (Australia) we have had 'socialised medicine' (known to us as Medicare) since the late 1970's, and it has worked wonderfully well. No one, not even the conservative parties here, would ever dream of getting rid of it, for any reason.



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19 May 2013, 2:13 am

androbot2084 wrote:
is socialized medicine biblical?


Jesus cured the sick for free, did he not?



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19 May 2013, 7:49 am

Lintar wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
is socialized medicine biblical?


Jesus cured the sick for free, did he not?


That is not socialism. It is pro bono Godhood.

ruveyn