Do buddhists know the real purpose of life?

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Who cares if it is a science? Oh science is truth? Hmmmmmmmm... is it?

Science is a process using empirical evidence and logical reasoning. It is an attempt to get truth using methods that most can accept as proper as after all, we have established that logic is a means of getting truth, and it can also be established that verifiable empirical data is something that people can allow as acceptable for getting understanding on a subject. The reason I mention that it isn't a science is to show that it really does not attempt to have the same standards of empirical evidence or logical reasoning based upon empirical evidence that a science would have and as such cannot be trusted in the same regards.

As much as I love science, science doesnt explain life things like "love" or "excitement" beyond a chemical reaction but does nothing to explain what it actually IS or 'feels' like. I don't care about reading experiments and studies and other peoples words - I know enough that studies are NOT enough and that EXPERIENCE is worth more then probably anything.

I can read studies and words on 'hockey' and how it excites people but that doesnt mean I:
- Know how to play
- Can skate
- Know what 'excitement' actually FEELS like
- Have automatic experience
- Even know what it truely LOOKS like or even 'is.'

Studies are enough to satisfy a desire for general knowledge.

You would know how the game is played, you may not be trained on how to skate but you could know all of the skating techniques necessary for hockey, you would know the kind of reaction that excitement creates and what it relates to, and you could form an image on what it looks like. Frankly though, I really don't care about hockey and the example is not that useful for the following reason: I seek something more abstract than experience can bring. One cannot experience a government, they can see the results, they can see what happens, they can even be a part of it, but that does not give one knowledge on what a government really is. One cannot experience an economy, one can have a job, one can own stocks, one can feel economic pain but one cannot really grasp everything about an economy just from that. One cannot experience truth, one can see things, one can feel things, but one cannot see or feel the entire picture as there is too much to it, therefore one must study it, one must read words on it, one must apply logic to the data available and extrapolate, but one cannot experience it.

Awesome, you argue everything so much, I feel half the time you're digging for stuff and simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

NOW you're discounting experience. We don't experience a government? Yes we do! What in the blue hell are you talking about? Everything around you is the way it is because of governmental standards! One cannot smoke inside bars because of the government. People cannot speed over a certain "speed" because of government. Hell, the car you buy MEETS a government standard. Not experiencing it? Dude, do you go outside into the world, ever?

So life is a "report" then, eh, useful for "general knowledge?" You're argument is now that experience and "living in the world" (something YOU said, yourself, is something YOU do):

means nothing and that going by reports and crap is everything. I cannot discuss this with you anymore. You are arguing too much for the sake of arguing. I dont even know what you're talking about anymore.

Just realize that someone else's words can't describe what it is FOR YOU. One cannot 'read knowledge' on an activity and state they know everything - you don't own that knowledge, you just borrowed it from some people doing 'studies' who don't even own it themselves. The hardest part to learning is adaptation.

The only thing is that technically there is no contradiction. One thing is that I differentiated truth from just experience saying that not everything can be learned from experience, however, that does not mean that I don't enjoy certain experiences over others. As well, all of those things are governmental actions but one does not experience government, government is greater than an individual's experience. Frankly, I will admit to a tendency to argue for its own sake but heck, at times I really don't see the consistency in your arguments either. I can describe how my tendencies and ideas fit together and how they make logical sense, you see things that I do not say and I have found myself in the past arguing past your overextensions of my claims.

Dude, I'm not the only one who has problems arguing with you.

My arguments ALL stem from the same truths of life, the same truths you argue against, over and over.

The problem is, you do not understand 'mind' clearly. This makes it difficult for me to argue when I have a firm and strong grasp on the subject (still no where near perfect, though). I've studied outside of 'science' where you have not. I have as much info on science as you and have taken it all into consideration, the thing is, science isn't about truth. Its about whatever is most profitable. We live in a society that has established that role.

As well, look up politics and apply logic to them. You will quickly find that politics does not involve a lot of 'logic.' Does involve a lot of lying, though.

Yeah, I know and I have always seen the people that have problems arguing with me as weirdos too. Partially joking there Corvus, what I mean is that these conflicts have probably been in the making for a while as I can see that the world views of those that have major problems with me are ones that I cannot really comprehend and have always had difficulty seeing the rationality of.
Truths of life??? I really don't get that. My arguments tend to stem from skepticism, and such.
I understand the mind clearly, I have even studied psychology to some extent. I don't understand mystical mumbo jumbo which is the subject you have seemed to study that I haven't. I have studied science, economics, politics, psychology, etc. Science is about truth, science is about applications of truth. Science has always been about truth and in our society we do emphasize the latter but we cannot have science without the former. Profit exists from the practical applications of knowledge to what exists.
Yeah, they do. Otherwise political strategists and analysts would not really exist. Politics involves a lot of lying in order to promote self-interest, the reason that this lying can occur is that voting populations are ignorant because ignorance is rational given their goals and their desire to pursue them. This is called rational ignorance. Politicians seek to take some ideas that seem logical to either them or to the targeted audience, mask it in a protective shield to prevent people from attacking their ideas and then put them forward in order to promote their objectives. There is logic in politics, it just ends up being that politicians twist logic by omitting premises in order to serve their goals.

"Mystical mumbo jumbo" it is NOT. It is something all humans are capable of doing: Meditating. Its something 2 of the OLDEST religions involved BUT meditation is NOT religion, it predates it. It literally 'strengthens' the mind, like doing 'curls with dumb bells' strengthen the arms. This is what you are arguing against - the brain is a muscle which can literally be strengthened.

Let me explain to you why its not mumbo jumbo and more 'science' then you want to think it is outside of strengthening itself (outside of the fact that our 'minds' are 'stronger' then any animals).

You can view this universe by jumping into a rocket ship and exploring the vastness of space, hoping to find an 'end.' Consider that 'looking through a telescope' of 'infinite distance.' Now, having mentioned 'infinity' we know there is no beginning OR end. What people fail to realize is that we can not only look through a telescope of infinite distance, but we can also do the opposite and "look with a microscope of infinite distance." Where can we look? Well, we can either keep looking in this universe, here, that we can see, OR we can explore our OWN universe, our minds, our conscience (which is as much as mystery, coincidentally).

If everything is connected as "1," then our minds, thoughts, ideas exist as part of that "1." This is why, during deep meditation, one can FEEL "1" with the universe. Think of it as looking at picture but not only looking at it but being a part of it at the same time.

If you were to say 'Hey, Corvus!!' while I was in a deep state, your words would go into one ear, I'd "hear" it, but I wouldn't respond to you, physically, for a few seconds. A deep state is so strong that coming out of it in a 'snap' is bad, put lightly.



I understand that they take ideas and put them on paper and they look good to people so they use them. Things like bans on 'anything' are horrible for society, that is the truth and has been proven (prohibition). However, reality still keeps having people banning things because they are disillusioned in thinking that preventing people from doing something will somehow benefit them - it does not and infact, can cause the complete opposite effect. Bans, I guess, are for people who lack 'discipline' and follow the herd into smoking cigarettes.

Now, one can say the Buddhism or meditation style of living is 'restricting' people but the thing is, people restrict THEMSELVES once they start seeing reality for what it TRUELY is. People in Western society are so out of controlled its disgusting. My friend routinely has no money and states "i dont know where it all goes" yet, I do. The guy spends left and right, uncontrollably. People refer to me as 'cheap' because I have money but the reality is, what I buy is VERY expensive, I just don't buy much.

This is the line between my friend and I. He feels he needs all this junk. He has about 67 sweaters but wears 6 routinely. Everytime he goes to a concert, he NEEDS to buy a shirt that he'll never wear. Mention this, he will become angry.

This is why, when telling a truth to someone about themselves, they get angry. What people "say" and "do" are 2 completely different things. Some people at my job state they've no time to do their work while they DO have time for 3 hours worth of breaks. If I mentioned that to them, I'd be bitched at. Why? It's only truth! Well, its because people are disillusioned in living in a world or their own lies.

As for lying in politics, as soon as you lie, you should be booted.

Uh... no. I argue against the idea that meditation can bring truth. Thinking and thinking exercises also strengthen the mind, so it isn't as if meditation holds the only claim to improving the organ.
Look, I have no problems with your meditation but I don't think it can be viewed as a way to gain truth from any epistemic fashion.
The only thing is that my consciousness is something I understand relatively well being that I have dealt with it for years(read as thought about, philosophized on, etc) and I seek to know about what goes on outside. Looking inside cannot tell me about everything, it can look at some problems but it cannot say everything and it cannot necessarily be accurate about describing our fellow man. I want the telescope and refuse the microscope for the most part.
The only problem is that the connection isn't that strong, I can think a thousand different thoughts but they don't affect the outside world very much at all and there is not much difference in the world whether I think of love or hatred. Meditation cannot bring truth because the connection that one has with the universe is the same as it was before and less evidence is gathered about the outside during this state than before as you can't access the same level of information as outside being that meditators tend not to move or read.
Not all people agree on the evidence, and some people who don't know the evidence but still vote can be suckered into these claims. The argument is often that certain people are weak and etc, governmental officials do these things in order to promote their interests and their claims are often based upon what people tend to believe on the world, as people don't have perfect knowledge.
The only thing is that Buddhists cannot claim to monopolize truth. Not only that but you can't expect that everyone be buddhist anyway. Wow, you have this one friend who is an idiot, western culture then must be evil! Come on, I know plenty of people that do fine in my part of the western world.
You know, I strangely don't think I have met too many people like this guy. Maybe he isn't the stereotype of the western world.
And Japan that stresses conformity and where criticism is taken personally is somehow better? One of the major criticisms of Japanese culture is that they cannot be criticized well. The reason why you'd be bitched at is because these people don't WANT the truth, they want to tell themselves these things because that way they'd enjoy the things they want to do. I'd bet that the truth of the matter is that these people really just want to put on a face to mask what they are doing to others.
Nice, not likely to happen though.

Science is a tool to aquire evidence to validate knowledge. It's a possible means to proof, everything can be explained scientifically. If science "fails", it's not really science that is failing, it is man that is failing. It only means his explanation wasn't the right one, but a correct scientific explanation is out there, perhaps waiting to be found.
Things such as karma, spirituality, ritual magick, and reincarnation can all be explained through the proccess of energy flow and energy mechanics.... In fact scientists are working on those energy fields now.
I still don't think we should aspire to think like computers and I still do not think greed, selfishness, ego, ignorance, and hatred are very productive traits.

I've actually never heard of any scientist who is doing any research on karma, or reincarnation. I also don't know what energy they'd be looking at or what empirical data they'd be studying. If you could give me an article telling me about this from a respected source, I would be interested.

I think that computers would be ideal though, being that I think that emotions cloud our actions to some extent so we should try to be more reasonable and rational. I also place value in the eyes of the individual valuing so if they seek greedy things or selfish things or egotistical things then that is what they desire. All value ultimately arises from a valuer.

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation by Dr. Ian Stevenson

Although it doesn't really come to much of a conclusion, there have been photos taken of energy fields surrounding plants, gem stones, and people, and there is also a book concerning this, though I've forgotten what it's called.

Interesting. I suppose where you stand on this then depends on where you stand within the scientific community as it seems that there are skeptics to his works and non-skeptics. Interesting to note though.

It brings truth of the "self." You are very keen on 'ego' and 'greed' so how would you REALLY know. The thing about "truth" is that, somethings YOU think are truth, may actually NOT be. Thats the truth (I mentioned 'adaptation' being the hardest part to learning). If you don't fully understand the truth of 'self' then how can you run out saying what is 'true' and what 'isnt?' Society starts at the individual. Society is what everyone contributes.



Truth of self. Why do you think they preach so much about "illusions?" I never understood that so much until I started practicing.



Then you are ignoring half the battle of truth. Look, whether YOU like it or not, YOU live in this world. YOU are as much a mystery as THIS world. There are at least 2 universes - YOURS and THIS ONE. YOU want to ignore YOURS like it doesn't exist.



Speak for yourself.



You're right, same as before. Has the universe changed? Perhaps, if there is a god, he is now gone home for the day and his puppy is taking over. Maybe if we start meditating again, we will get in touch with a puppy and you can think "finally, somethings changed." Truth doesn't change much, if at all (I dont think it does at all, at least, I cant think of any that do). This parapraph is weird to me because I'm getting the impression you think "truth" changes. What was true 10,000 years ago about the universe is still true today and you want to argue against that? uhh, ok?

As well, in case you haven't noticed, meditators are awake for as long as you. Some sleep less as the meditation is extremely restorative to your body. I know you have no idea from no experience, but there are times when one exits meditation and has a ton of new found energy. But, science can't prove what people feel so we will move on.

I don't care if you don't meditate or ever do, fyi, just understand what you are talking about.



They would have perfect knowledge if those politicians explained the facts and what IS going on. Thats truth, but instead, they "sell" information and people buy it and things get screwed up from there. Its what 'truth' is important in all aspects of life. You're against censorship, withholding any information is censorship. They may lose their jobs but thats the problem with the truth, everyone is in disillusion right now. Some are going to have to take a hit but its easier to just lie and profit.



Truth of SELF! Science doesn't explain 'self.' As well, not many seek 'self' so why would they understand it?



Did I fail to mention how credit card companies work? If I didnt, I will add that my friend here, ya, his cards are maxed out so the credit card company gave him a larger balance so now he maxes that out. You know why credit card companies do that? Not to be nice, but because they want to capitolize on a morons spending habits. They do this to everyone; thats western civilization. Its like the government cashing in on a Gamblers addiction. We treat addiction as a disease but when it comes to Gambling, no way, the government is there to cash in.

I know plenty of people that do fine, as well, but I know a large portion that don't. I know you refuse to acknowledge any holes in western society, but a large portion live in poverty. Social society and many live in poverty - go figure. Well, it IS social for people to capitolize on you. And logical, to you.



Actually, America has a great economy because it PROMOTES spending. Also has a lot of poor people that get suckered into it. Someone speaking of truth, they wouldn't have this problem (truth is powerful, you'll see).



OK, Bro, you've said the words "logic" 80 million times and "truth" 80 million times. WHAT IS THE TRUTH? Tell me and everyone here, what IS the truth - you can sit there, comfortable in your chair and downplay EVERYTHING that ANYONE has to say, but not ONCE have you said anything that is truthful OR provided evidence to support it. You've been a GREAT devil's advocate, but now enlighten us. Buddhism has none, we've established that, and "ego" and "greed" and "pride" are logical despite what at least 2 religions say about those things, you think otherwise. So what else is the truth? What is truth to you?

Don't even answer anything else in my post, I just want a point form summary of all the truths you have found in your life and we'll start discussing them. Thats all I want to read, truths. I'm sure they will be nicely related to: business and science



You're right, because people refuse to except truth (as noted)

You are not keen, how would you know. Let's just look at meditation a bit, it alters the brain, if it alters the brain then how does it bring truth unless by changing it. If it changes the way your brain works then can it really be argued to bring truth about the self? That is like digging up my yard to find the truth that it has holes in it. By your very acts of meditation you strive to overcome "ego" and "greed" and because of that you seek to change yourself and aspects of yourself.

But it does not necessarily bring the truth of who you are, it seeks to change aspects of you. I really don't know why the preach about "illusions" that means nothing. Christianity preaches sin, and Scientology preaches thetans.

I know it exists, and I know that it has certain aspects to it. However, I cannot ever be an unbiased observer of myself which causes it to cease to be valid as a thing of observation. Even your meditation is not aimed so much at finding the self as it does at changing the self. The finding of my own nature at a deeper level can be done more reasonably through studies and through objective outside evaluations.


No Corvus, I mean that there is no way on earth that you can glean more information from the outside world by depriving yourself of it as you cannot get more data from these actions so therefore meditation can really do little more than logic in describing things, it cannot be a source of knowledge.

The universe is continually changing..... More data pops up about the mystery as well from this new data as you do not have it all and therefore cannot come to the reasonable final solution. This paragraph is weird to me because I don't know where the f**k that poppy came from, not only that but the idea that things change is a given and a duh and the idea that new information becomes processed and available is a given and a duh.
Ok, this means nothing to me. It wasn't a part of the argument as meditators are not doing things in this world and are not actors in this world as they meditate.
Dude, no, stop reading what I write down wrong, stop misinterpreting my statements. I never stated that meditators were napping

Perfect information is impossible, they might have better information but given the nature of many of these politicians I wouldn't be surprised if THEY found ignorance rational as well. Censoring information is censorship Corvus, telling lies is not the same, censoring means blocking information, lying means contradicting information.

Science explains the nature of individuals in this world. Buddhism as well changes the self through their meditation, so how can you really be seeking your true self if your actions attempt to manipulate and change it.

I know how credit card companies work Corvus, I still call him a moron and claim I haven't met many of his type. I know why they do it too. Unless you are talking about the lotto I really don't have a clue, the lotto can hardly be considered to bring any form of rush to it compared to most other forms.
I know that some people do live in poverty Corvus. I just refuse to accept them as the sign of western society, you take the bad and say "this is what western society is" which is ridiculous and by no means the truth.

I know about spending Corvus. Also your sentence on truth makes no sense, but please oh please don't bother explaining it.

Well Corvus, you are the one that mentioned these things and brought them forth. If you didn't expect criticism then why? Truth to me? ok

* reality is real
* logic is true
* all knowledge must be based upon the 2 previous statements

Oh, and I know some crap about what other people have said or think but that does not really reach any significance.

Now, if you can note, a lot of this really does not say very many positive statements at all. The reason being that I don't claim to necessarily have truth but maybe a few opinions on what we can and cannot say as true. I am critical of a few ideas though, one of them being the one we have batted back and forth a million times now.
Oops, already did and do not really care.

Because truth isn't what they consider to be their logical interests.