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One Argument that Creationists Really Struggle With

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ghoti
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28 Jun 2013, 5:55 pm

uwmonkdm wrote:
No need to get so technical, they can't even explain dinosaurs..


I have heard that some creationists believe dinosaurs co-existed with humans in earlier times. Such as Jesus may have encountered them.



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28 Jun 2013, 6:06 pm

ghoti wrote:
uwmonkdm wrote:
No need to get so technical, they can't even explain dinosaurs..


I have heard that some creationists believe dinosaurs co-existed with humans in earlier times. Such as Jesus may have encountered them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VitOXDvbHU[/youtube]


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uwmonkdm
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28 Jun 2013, 7:53 pm

ghoti wrote:
uwmonkdm wrote:
No need to get so technical, they can't even explain dinosaurs..


I have heard that some creationists believe dinosaurs co-existed with humans in earlier times. Such as Jesus may have encountered them.


I've heard some people say that Kim Kardashian is secretly a reptilian alien, what's your point?



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29 Jun 2013, 4:02 am

Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
... Rational Creationism is in no way incompatible with the Theory of Evolution. ruveyn

I never thought I'd see the words "Rational" and "Creationism" in the same sentence.


Probably to distinguish belief in creation as such from the pseudoscience of creationism.



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29 Jun 2013, 4:11 am

uwmonkdm wrote:
No need to get so technical, they can't even explain dinosaurs..


They don't struggle with that one. Hell, they can even pull off references to dinosaurs from the Bible itself.



TallyMan
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29 Jun 2013, 4:37 am

MCalavera wrote:
uwmonkdm wrote:
No need to get so technical, they can't even explain dinosaurs..


They don't struggle with that one. Hell, they can even pull off references to dinosaurs from the Bible itself.


Back in the days when Jehovah's Witnesses used to plague my door, their explanation was that God put dinosaurs on Earth to keep the rampant vegetation down until he created mankind. :lol:


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Vertex
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29 Jun 2013, 4:38 am

Creationism shouldn't be confused with religion. All a creationist believes, is that "something" intelligent was involved with the birth of the Universe. It's a hypothesis, nothing more. It's not any more or less plausible than the idea of Atheism. Neither can be proven. Neither can be disproven. It's a box that will never be opened.



TallyMan
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29 Jun 2013, 4:46 am

Vertex wrote:
Creationism shouldn't be confused with religion. All a creationist believes, is that "something" intelligent was involved with the birth of the Universe. It's a hypothesis, nothing more. It's not any more or less plausible than the idea of Atheism. Neither can be proven. Neither can be disproven. It's a box that will never be opened.


That box may well be opened one day if the physics of the beginning of very beginning of the universe is unravelled.

Creationists once held (and some still do) that life on Earth and specifically mankind was created by a god; that is now known to be false. Creationists are clutching at straws now, hoping that physics won't eventually solve the cause of the big bang.

In the meantime, there is no evidence that any gods exist so the concept is both redundant and irrelevant.


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Nambo
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29 Jun 2013, 5:22 am

Iam glad you guys have brought this irrefutable evidence that evolution is now proven because different organisms share DNA because I can use this to prove a belief I get constant ridicule over, namely, that large motorcycles evolved from smaller motorcycles.

For instance, I have a Triumph 250, and a BSA 500, ket me list a few parts that are exactly the same , that are interchangeable, and that even use the same part number which is really just a simple form of DNA.

Frame,
Front forks
Front wheel
Back wheel
Shock absorbers
fork yokes
lights
indicators
speedo
handlebar controls
seat
tank
mudguards
Gearbox
Clutch
Timing cover inner and outer

In fact I would estimate that at least 80% of these, the manufacturer has used the exact same parts!, that proves they where not made but evolved.

AS Iam sure you skeptics will deny what is proven, I will give an example from two relevant parts books so you can see the part number, (think DNA), is exactly the same!! !

Layshaft first gear pinion 27 teeth (Triumph 250) 57-3874
Layshaft first gear pinion 27 teeth (BSA 500) 57-3874

(Triumph 250) Micram adjuster (Lockheed 3135-514) 19-7742
(BSA 500) Micram adjuster (Lockheed 3135-514) 19-7742

There you are, just two examples out of thousands I could give that these very different motorcycles share the same parts and even the same part numbers, therefore logically proving that one evolved from the other.



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29 Jun 2013, 5:29 am

TallyMan wrote:
Vertex wrote:
Creationism shouldn't be confused with religion. All a creationist believes, is that "something" intelligent was involved with the birth of the Universe. It's a hypothesis, nothing more. It's not any more or less plausible than the idea of Atheism. Neither can be proven. Neither can be disproven. It's a box that will never be opened.


That box may well be opened one day if the physics of the beginning of very beginning of the universe is unravelled.

Creationists once held (and some still do) that life on Earth and specifically mankind was created by a god; that is now known to be false. Creationists are clutching at straws now, hoping that physics won't eventually solve the cause of the big bang.

In the meantime, there is no evidence that a god exists so the concept is both redundant and irrelevant.
The most obvious argument a Creationist would use is, "Even if we can understand how the big bang happened we will never understand why the big bang happened." Or another favorite, "God created physics. You can't use his own rules against him." There are certain phycological reasons why some people want to believe in a higher power. I say let them. If Christians can learn to stay out of everyone's buisness (like that will ever happen) maybe Atheists can learn to stop acting smuggly superior over the internet.(equally improbable) In any case, people should be able to believe what they want to believe, without someone telling them how wrong they are.



TallyMan
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29 Jun 2013, 5:57 am

Vertex wrote:
...There are certain phycological reasons why some people want to believe in a higher power. I say let them. If Christians can learn to stay out of everyone's buisness (like that will ever happen) maybe Atheists can learn to stop acting smuggly superior over the internet.(equally improbable) In any case, people should be able to believe what they want to believe, without someone telling them how wrong they are.


While it sounds nice in theory to allow people to believe whatever they want to believe, in practice it has casualties. Jehovah's Witnesses withholding a vital blood transfusion for their dying child. Fundamentalist parents refusing medical help or medication for their children, instead relying on "the power of prayer". Exorcisms of people with treatable mental illnesses with preachers trying to throw out "demons". In some parts of Africa where fundamentalist religious beliefs have been imported by Christian missionaries, believers routinely burn women alive who they consider possessed by the devil. Islamic beliefs suppress women's rights and lead to women treated as second class citizens. Rape victims can face being stoned to death. This is why people should be educated, rather than left with irrational beliefs that hurt other people.


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ruveyn
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29 Jun 2013, 8:09 am

TallyMan wrote:
Vertex wrote:
...There are certain phycological reasons why some people want to believe in a higher power. I say let them. If Christians can learn to stay out of everyone's buisness (like that will ever happen) maybe Atheists can learn to stop acting smuggly superior over the internet.(equally improbable) In any case, people should be able to believe what they want to believe, without someone telling them how wrong they are.


While it sounds nice in theory to allow people to believe whatever they want to believe, in practice it has casualties. Jehovah's Witnesses withholding a vital blood transfusion for their dying child. Fundamentalist parents refusing medical help or medication for their children, instead relying on "the power of prayer". Exorcisms of people with treatable mental illnesses with preachers trying to throw out "demons". In some parts of Africa where fundamentalist religious beliefs have been imported by Christian missionaries, believers routinely burn women alive who they consider possessed by the devil. Islamic beliefs suppress women's rights and lead to women treated as second class citizens. Rape victims can face being stoned to death. This is why people should be educated, rather than left with irrational beliefs that hurt other people.


Would you recommend that the State control such matters?

in the United States there is little that can be done. The First Amendment prohibits congress from establishing a church and permits the free exercise of religious beliefs. I think there is some legal hocus pocus that would make the sacrifice of Virgins on the New Moon just plain murder.

ruveyn



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29 Jun 2013, 10:42 am

ruveyn wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Vertex wrote:
...There are certain phycological reasons why some people want to believe in a higher power. I say let them. If Christians can learn to stay out of everyone's buisness (like that will ever happen) maybe Atheists can learn to stop acting smuggly superior over the internet.(equally improbable) In any case, people should be able to believe what they want to believe, without someone telling them how wrong they are.


While it sounds nice in theory to allow people to believe whatever they want to believe, in practice it has casualties. Jehovah's Witnesses withholding a vital blood transfusion for their dying child. Fundamentalist parents refusing medical help or medication for their children, instead relying on "the power of prayer". Exorcisms of people with treatable mental illnesses with preachers trying to throw out "demons". In some parts of Africa where fundamentalist religious beliefs have been imported by Christian missionaries, believers routinely burn women alive who they consider possessed by the devil. Islamic beliefs suppress women's rights and lead to women treated as second class citizens. Rape victims can face being stoned to death. This is why people should be educated, rather than left with irrational beliefs that hurt other people.


Would you recommend that the State control such matters?

in the United States there is little that can be done. The First Amendment prohibits congress from establishing a church and permits the free exercise of religious beliefs. I think there is some legal hocus pocus that would make the sacrifice of Virgins on the New Moon just plain murder.

ruveyn


I would most certainly recommend that the state has control over the quality and content of the education given to your children. From what I've read (correct me if this is incorrect) there are still some schools in the US that teach creationism as fact and evolution is either ignored completely or summarily dismissed as a crackpot 19th century theory by Charles Darwin. Deliberately teaching kids false information (propaganda) is the sort of thing I'd expect to hear about in third world countries, dictatorships and fundamentalist Islamic countries, not somewhere like the US.


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GGPViper
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29 Jun 2013, 12:06 pm

Nambo wrote:
Iam glad you guys have brought this irrefutable evidence that evolution is now proven because different organisms share DNA because I can use this to prove a belief I get constant ridicule over, namely, that large motorcycles evolved from smaller motorcycles.

For instance, I have a Triumph 250, and a BSA 500, ket me list a few parts that are exactly the same , that are interchangeable, and that even use the same part number which is really just a simple form of DNA.

Frame,
Front forks
Front wheel
Back wheel
Shock absorbers
fork yokes
lights
indicators
speedo
handlebar controls
seat
tank
mudguards
Gearbox
Clutch
Timing cover inner and outer

In fact I would estimate that at least 80% of these, the manufacturer has used the exact same parts!, that proves they where not made but evolved.

AS Iam sure you skeptics will deny what is proven, I will give an example from two relevant parts books so you can see the part number, (think DNA), is exactly the same!! !

Layshaft first gear pinion 27 teeth (Triumph 250) 57-3874
Layshaft first gear pinion 27 teeth (BSA 500) 57-3874

(Triumph 250) Micram adjuster (Lockheed 3135-514) 19-7742
(BSA 500) Micram adjuster (Lockheed 3135-514) 19-7742

There you are, just two examples out of thousands I could give that these very different motorcycles share the same parts and even the same part numbers, therefore logically proving that one evolved from the other.

I have no problem with the claim that large motorcycles evolved from smaller motorcycles, so you need not fear any ridicule from me.

Biology doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of evolution. The term is frequently used to describe market behaviour, gender roles and standards of decency, for instance.

Biology only has a monopoly on the concept of biological evolution, which (according to the Wikipedia definition) is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.

Since motorcycles are not biological populations, they clearly do not evolve through the mechanisms of biological evolution. No controversy, no ridicule.



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29 Jun 2013, 12:21 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Since motorcycles are not biological populations, they clearly do not evolve through the mechanisms of biological evolution. No controversy, no ridicule.


^ This.


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ghoti
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29 Jun 2013, 12:33 pm

TallyMan wrote:
I would most certainly recommend that the state has control over the quality and content of the education given to your children. From what I've read (correct me if this is incorrect) there are still some schools in the US that teach creationism as fact and evolution is either ignored completely or summarily dismissed as a crackpot 19th century theory by Charles Darwin. Deliberately teaching kids false information (propaganda) is the sort of thing I'd expect to hear about in third world countries, dictatorships and fundamentalist Islamic countries, not somewhere like the US.


Like Cobb County Georgia where the science textbooks have warning labels stuck on them saying contents in them are just that.

*post edited by TallyMan to fix the broken quotes*