Roger Waters- It’s apartheid “clear and simple,”
13 Oct 2013, 5:21 pm
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
When it comes to discussions about the behaviour of the state of Israel, I would have more respect for pro-Zionists if they came out and said that "might is right".
But no. The pro-Zionists want to drum up support in the West by pretending that Israel is some island of enlightened progressivism surrounded by a sea of backwardness.
And whenever anyone challenges the Zionist propagandists on this idea, the Zionists usually avoid the subject in hand and just start flinging mud at their opponent in the hope that some of it will stick.
But no. The pro-Zionists want to drum up support in the West by pretending that Israel is some island of enlightened progressivism surrounded by a sea of backwardness.
And whenever anyone challenges the Zionist propagandists on this idea, the Zionists usually avoid the subject in hand and just start flinging mud at their opponent in the hope that some of it will stick.
Why are you even using the word "Zionism"?
After all, I don't see a lot of Albanianism, Brazilism, Cambodianism, Djiboutiism, East-Timorism, Finlandism, Gabonism, Hondurasism, Iranism, Jamaicaism, Kyrgyzstanism, Latviaism, Mexicoism, Netherlandism, Omanism, Portugalism, Qatarism, Rwandaism, Senegalism, Thailandism, Uruguayism, Vietnamism... (ok, no countries starting with a "W".. oh wait, Belarus - White Russiaism), Yemenism or Zambiasm on WP.
The better well informed people use the 'term' Zionism because they are talking about Israel, founded by these racial-ideology. Interesting that the Nazism, was emulated of the Zionism, the same structures and narratives, racial excepcionalism, organic society, vital space (find by territories richest in natural resources) etc
Is not really the same thing when you compares the other nationalism types with Zionism, the same way when you compares other nationalism with Nazism.
Is very suspicious when us seeing the ADL and others create ways to criminalise people to say that Israel is wrong with your treatment to palestinians. If it is true, is a crime to try avoid attention of the society to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtx1u8Bv5_I
Very interesting documentary about this matter.
13 Oct 2013, 5:45 pm
Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
Arab Republic of Egypt
Islamic Republic of Iran
Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
Lao People's Democratic Republic
Islamic Republic of Mauritania
Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Syrian Arab Republic
United Arab Emirates
Last time I checked, no one was challenging the existence of these countries on the basis of their ethnic/religious rationale.
13 Oct 2013, 8:33 pm
Half of my family is Jewish (including my brother, who converted when he got married*), and half of my friends are Jewish (including my best friend), and I support the right of Israel to exist; and I think that Israel is committing apartheid against the Palestinians.
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
13 Oct 2013, 8:51 pm
LKL wrote:
Half of my family is Jewish (including my brother, who converted when he got married*), and half of my friends are Jewish (including my best friend), and I support the right of Israel to exist; and I think that Israel is committing apartheid against the Palestinians.
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
I agree completely. The entire Israel/Palestine situation should be resolved by adhering to the personal anecdote of LKL.
13 Oct 2013, 9:07 pm
GGPViper wrote:
LKL wrote:
Half of my family is Jewish (including my brother, who converted when he got married*), and half of my friends are Jewish (including my best friend), and I support the right of Israel to exist; and I think that Israel is committing apartheid against the Palestinians.
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
I agree completely. The entire Israel/Palestine situation should be resolved by adhering to the personal anecdote of LKL.
Dude. The anecdote is an illustrative take-out. Please address the points; do you agree or disagree, for example, that the Orthodox Jews have too much power? That the concept of 'god-given-right' to the land is an issue?
Do you want me to post some more examples of legal abuse by the Orthodox in the state of Israel, both in terms of unearned entitlements and actual physical abuse of the non-Orthodox and of Palestinians?
13 Oct 2013, 9:21 pm
LKL wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
LKL wrote:
Half of my family is Jewish (including my brother, who converted when he got married*), and half of my friends are Jewish (including my best friend), and I support the right of Israel to exist; and I think that Israel is committing apartheid against the Palestinians.
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
A huge proportion of the issues that I have with Israel as a nation have to do with the political power of the Orthodox/Fundamentalist sects possess. If they only had as much power as their numbers and socioeconomic status granted, the state as a whole would be a lot better off, but they're granted all kinds of ridiculous exceptions to the law that everybody else has to follow. It is that branch of Judaism which thinks that Israel not only has a right to exist, but that Jews have a god-given right to all of the land in Israel regardless of who has been living on the land for the last thousand years or so.
*Had my brother and sister-in-law been in Israel, he would not have been officially been able to convert at that time b/c the Orthodox Jews have such a stranglehold on the government; all converts are officially Orthodox, and my Sister-in-law is a Liberal/Reform Jew. The law has since changed, but some Rabbis still don't recognize non-Orthodox conversions for weddings etc.
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=28914
I agree completely. The entire Israel/Palestine situation should be resolved by adhering to the personal anecdote of LKL.
Dude. The anecdote is an illustrative take-out.
Thus, useless.
LKL wrote:
Please address the points; do you agree or disagree, for example, that the Orthodox Jews have too much power? That the concept of 'god-given-right' to the land is an issue?
I will not even consider answering that question until you invest similar effort in condemning countries based on Islamic Law.
LKL wrote:
Do you want me to post some more examples of legal abuse by the Orthodox in the state of Israel, both in terms of unearned entitlements and actual physical abuse of the non-Orthodox and of Palestinians?
Do you want me to post examples of legal abuse by Islamic countries? Protip: Long list.
13 Oct 2013, 9:24 pm
Illustrations in either debate or description are not useless.
As for what Islamic countries do, that's a tu quoque error; I don't give a damn about what Islamic countries do. I hold Israel (and the US, for that matter) to a higher standard than some theocratic backwater where little girls are shot for going to school.
13 Oct 2013, 9:47 pm
LKL wrote:
Illustrations in either debate or description are not useless.
Presenting anecdote as something worthy of consideration is useless.
LKL wrote:
As for what Islamic countries do, that's a tu quoque error; I don't give a damn about what Islamic countries do.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
LKL wrote:
I hold Israel (and the US, for that matter) to a higher standard than some theocratic backwater where little girls are shot for going to school.
Why? Is it OK to rape women and throw acid in their face as long as it takes place outside the "Western" world?
13 Oct 2013, 10:43 pm
GGPViper wrote:
LKL wrote:
Illustrations in either debate or description are not useless.
Presenting anecdote as something worthy of consideration is useless.
Presenting illustrations is neither unworthy of consideration, nor useless.
Quote:
LKL wrote:
As for what Islamic countries do, that's a tu quoque error; I don't give a damn about what Islamic countries do.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Tu quoque error - literally, 'you, also.' In this case, 'them, also.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Quote:
LKL wrote:
I hold Israel (and the US, for that matter) to a higher standard than some theocratic backwater where little girls are shot for going to school.
Why? Is it OK to rape women and throw acid in their face as long as it takes place outside the "Western" world?
Why do I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard? Because they are modern, educated, Western people, and because I associate them more with myself; in other words, they don't have the excuse of being dirt-poor and dirt-ignorant, and I feel that when the US and Israel behave badly, it reflects back on me more than when a Somali behaves badly.
As for whether or not it's ok, no of course it is not... but that is not relevant in this discussion (see above). The question is not, 'Which nation or group behaves the worst in the world,' the question is, 'Is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians wrong, and does it fit the definition of apartheid?'
thomas81
Veteran
Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland
14 Oct 2013, 12:31 pm
LKL wrote:
Why do I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard? Because they are modern, educated, Western people, and because I associate them more with myself; in other words, they don't have the excuse of being dirt-poor and dirt-ignorant, and I feel that when the US and Israel behave badly, it reflects back on me more than when a Somali behaves badly.
'
'
precisely, and in the specific case of the Palestinians they lack the luxury of objectivity because their backs are against the wall. As opposed to the Israelis, itself a miniature first world nuclear military industrial complex backed up by the worlds largest superpower. That is why its a fallacious argument that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers.
14 Oct 2013, 1:45 pm
thomas81 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Why do I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard? Because they are modern, educated, Western people, and because I associate them more with myself; in other words, they don't have the excuse of being dirt-poor and dirt-ignorant, and I feel that when the US and Israel behave badly, it reflects back on me more than when a Somali behaves badly.
'
'
precisely, and in the specific case of the Palestinians they lack the luxury of objectivity because their backs are against the wall. As opposed to the Israelis, itself a miniature first world nuclear military industrial complex backed up by the worlds largest superpower. That is why its a fallacious argument that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers.
1948, 1967 and 1973.
It's not an argument. It's a fact. Israel is armed to the teeth because its existence depends on being armed to the teeth. Israel would need neither nukes nor US military aid if it wasn't surrounded by countries that (through words and deeds alike) want to to bring about its demise.
I also find it somewhat ironic that you would dismiss the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers, given that you yourself are hostile to the very existence of Israel.
14 Oct 2013, 5:12 pm
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
You believe (or want to make out) that by not being a Zionist I am taking an extreme position because I am apparently questioning Israel's "right" to exist, whereas I apparently do not question the "right" to exist of other countries, and I am therefore unfairly singling Israel out.
Correct.
Mukherjee80 wrote:
Well, this is the opposite of the truth. It is Zionists who single themselves out by going on and on about their favourite country's supposed "right to exist".
You are confusing cause and effect. There would be no discussion (and Zionists going on and on) about Israel's right to exist if there wasn't a lot of countries - including some of the worst dictatorships in the world - refusing to recognize Israel (and *only* Israel).
Whether a bunch of dictatorships refuse to recognize Israel or not is irrelevant. It still doesn't give Israel or any other country an automatic "right to exist".
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
Most sensible people realize that the idea of any country having a "right" to exist is ridiculous. Countries exist as long as power allows them to exist. Many countries throughout history have come and gone.
I suppose you have no problem with Israeli settlements on the West Bank, then. After all, the Palestinians clearly have no "right" whatsoever to those lands.
You would be correct if you said that a sovereign state of Palestine has no automatic right to exist. That doesn't mean I have no problem when I hear about Israeli bulldozers flattening Palestinian homes to make way for an apartheid wall only to then hear Zionist propagandists in the UK and USA saying it never happened or it's always someone else's fault when Israel behaves like this or we should all side with Israel anyway because it's a "Western liberal democracy".
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
Whether Israel as a state continues to exist is not important to me, hence I am not a Zionist - and I disagree with people trying to make me believe I should be one (usually by propagandizing about how Israel is some great beacon of democracy or about how the Palestinians' problems are all their own fault, and so on).
If the fate of Israel is so unimportant to you, then why are almost half of your posts on WP so far about Jews and Israel?
Because I probably hear more rubbish said about this subject than anything else, and I care about the truth. Because I am tired of hearing propagandists and lobbyists and cowardly politicians say that the USA (and thus its poodle, the UK, where I live) should always side with Israel because it's a "Western liberal democracy". Because I think that this subject illustrates as well as anything else how much of politics is about power dressed up as moral superiority. And I'll keep on posting on this subject as often as I like.
14 Oct 2013, 5:13 pm
LKL wrote:
Illustrations in either debate or description are not useless.
As for what Islamic countries do, that's a tu quoque error; I don't give a damn about what Islamic countries do. I hold Israel (and the US, for that matter) to a higher standard than some theocratic backwater where little girls are shot for going to school.
As for what Islamic countries do, that's a tu quoque error; I don't give a damn about what Islamic countries do. I hold Israel (and the US, for that matter) to a higher standard than some theocratic backwater where little girls are shot for going to school.
My view is slightly different.
I don't see that Israel has ever lived up to the Western, liberal standards its supporters claim the country is characterized by, and I have long since stopped expecting it to do so. But since so many propagandists continue to describe it as Western and liberal, I will continue to examine that claim to see how it stands up.
If the Zionist lobbyists, journalists and propagandists in countries like the USA instead admitted they did not care about Western, liberal values at all, that would be fair enough. I don't see Iranian or Saudi propagandists in the West claiming their countries are Western and liberal, after all.
14 Oct 2013, 6:32 pm
The Apartheid analogy is a false analogy. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they need to stop sending missiles and violating ceasefires like some kind of brat who just wants to provoke and cause trouble. The barrier has saved thousands of lives--and if Hamas hadn't acted like a bunch of zealots who just wants to kick the jews out of Israel again (like the Romans, the Brits and the Ottomans before them), there would be no need fo a barrier.
thomas81
Veteran
Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland
14 Oct 2013, 7:00 pm
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Why do I hold Israel and the US to a higher standard? Because they are modern, educated, Western people, and because I associate them more with myself; in other words, they don't have the excuse of being dirt-poor and dirt-ignorant, and I feel that when the US and Israel behave badly, it reflects back on me more than when a Somali behaves badly.
'
'
precisely, and in the specific case of the Palestinians they lack the luxury of objectivity because their backs are against the wall. As opposed to the Israelis, itself a miniature first world nuclear military industrial complex backed up by the worlds largest superpower. That is why its a fallacious argument that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers.
1948, 1967 and 1973.
It's not an argument. It's a fact. Israel is armed to the teeth because its existence depends on being armed to the teeth. Israel would need neither nukes nor US military aid if it wasn't surrounded by countries that (through words and deeds alike) want to to bring about its demise.
I also find it somewhat ironic that you would dismiss the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile powers, given that you yourself are hostile to the very existence of Israel.
Completely ignoring the fact that Israel's immediate enemies have neither the means nor political conditions to carry out their threats and even if they tried, they'd be turned into glass. There is no threat to Israel. There is however a systematic campaign to genocide the group of people who identify as Palestinian though. Israel wouldn't be surrounded by enemies if it hadn't imposed itself in a part of the world which is contentious to the peoples who can claim indigenous ancestry dating centuries or millennia. Israel is like the drunk at the party that everyone wishes would leave.
You don't flick a sleeping lion in the balls with a wet towel and not expect to get bitten.
Thats even before you take into consideration the reason why it was created in the first place. Its supposed to be a safe haven for Jews. If I was a Jew let alone a Zionist Jew, that was concerned for my well being I would get away as far as possible from the one place where I was hated.
14 Oct 2013, 7:27 pm
Kurgan wrote:
The Apartheid analogy is a false analogy. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they need to stop sending missiles and violating ceasefires like some kind of brat who just wants to provoke and cause trouble. The barrier has saved thousands of lives--and if Hamas hadn't acted like a bunch of zealots who just wants to kick the jews out of Israel again (like the Romans, the Brits and the Ottomans before them), there would be no need fo a barrier.
'The barrier has saved thousands of lives'?!
How long has it been up - a couple of years?
And how many Israelis were killed each year by Palestinian terrorists *before* the barrier (hint: not thousands)?
Check your numbers, Kurgan.
