Do you think abortion is wrong?

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Sherlock03
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19 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

Sharkbait wrote:

. I think the problem stems from the fact that one of our underpinning premises is wrong: Life is not precious. In fact, once established it appears to be quite trivial.

I think you are right about this. I was going to post something similar but I didn't want to get screamed at.

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The_Walrus
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19 Nov 2013, 5:30 pm

Magneto wrote:

So, at what point does the fetus become a person? Personally, I go for the 2 week limit (primitive streak), because before that point each of the cells could become an entirely new organism (okay, not entirely, but twinning is still possible), but after that point, it's definitely one single organism.

Having the ability to become an entirely new organism does not mean you are not a person, nor does being a unique organism make you a person.

The second statement is obviously true, because we kill unique organisms without batting an eyelid all the time. The first is perhaps harder, but there are animals that regrow two bodies when they are cut in two, for example. If humans could do that, would we not be people?

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Also, I don't know of any other such major points after that,

As suggestions:
1) The development of the brain... except most people don't think "having a brain" is sufficient for personhood (although it is currently necessary- there are no known persons without brains)
2) Quickening- but movement is neither necessary or sufficient for personhood
3) Consciousness- yes, this is necessary for personhood, but it is hard to determine when it first develops. It certainly is not before 2 weeks, or 4 weeks, or 24 weeks.

RandyG
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19 Nov 2013, 5:51 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:

Ideally, I think that personal choice ought to be no one's business but the people actually involved.

Actual humans have rights. Potential humans do not. I don't believe I'm justified in telling any woman what she must or must not do with her body.

And either way, other people should not be forced to pay for her decision.

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19 Nov 2013, 6:03 pm

RandyG wrote:

BuyerBeware wrote:

Ideally, I think that personal choice ought to be no one's business but the people actually involved.

I want to agree with you. I really, really do.

My problem is that I profoundly believe that one of the rights of "actual humans" is to be free of pressure and/or coercion to make one choice or the other. Simply on that basis, I've been firmly pro-choice all my rational life.

The issue is that, frankly, I've seen more respect for that freedom from pressure from the pro-life crowd in the past few years (they at least do not, in general, frown on choosing to give a child you do not wish to care for to someone who does). A few too many pro-choicers have vehemently expressed the opinion that neither I nor my children should be here.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy...

...but I am sadly taking my leave of the American left, as too many of them seem to have slid down it all the same.

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woodster
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19 Nov 2013, 6:03 pm

i am not american so i dont have ret*d ingrained arguments on the subject. im not connecting politics with my opinion, its just my opinion.

i do think it's wrong though yes. Someone above said humans have rights and potential humans do not. When exactly do you determine that happens? For me it's a lot earlier than the baby actually being born.

Saying that, there are obviously times when its necessary. Just don't be callous and convince yourself its morally ok because it isn't, it's just a necessary evil at times.

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19 Nov 2013, 6:50 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Depends on how far into the pregnancy the woman is. The fact that fetuses are aborted at 22 weeks is madness, but if a woman chooses to have an abortion at 8 weeks, she shouldn't have to justify it to anyone.

I would agree with you *except* that late gestation abortions are usually due to health problems with the mother or abnormalities of the fetus, or due to the fact that the woman didn't have access to a local clinic and had to save up enough money to travel and pay for a hotel at a distant clinic.

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19 Nov 2013, 7:15 pm

I don't think it's wrong and I've had one. I never regretted it.

Giftorcurse
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19 Nov 2013, 8:47 pm

Depends on the situation. Adoption isn't a clean option either.

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Kurgan
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19 Nov 2013, 9:09 pm

LKL wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

I would agree with you *except* that late gestation abortions are usually due to health problems with the mother or abnormalities of the fetus,

Then it's a completely different matter, of course.

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19 Nov 2013, 10:35 pm

Max000
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19 Nov 2013, 10:58 pm

RandyG wrote:

BuyerBeware wrote:

Ideally, I think that personal choice ought to be no one's business but the people actually involved.

Actual humans have rights. Potential humans do not. I don't believe I'm justified in telling any woman what she must or must not do with her body.

Anti-abortion people believe that fetuses have more rights then actual human beings. Especially then actual female human beings.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_cJnO6Hro[/youtube]

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20 Nov 2013, 1:00 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:

The whole "right to choose" argument is nonsense, because unless she was raped, the woman already made her choice by having sex. Liberals and the PC crowd often mistake this stance as one of hate, but the truth is that many people (including me) have a great deal of sympathy and compassion for the sexually abused.

so prohibiting abortion is just as much about punishing the woman for having been nasty enough to have voluntary sex, as it is about 'saving the poor zef'?

roronoa79
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20 Nov 2013, 1:08 am

Yeah, I think an unborn fetus is alive. Yeah, I think abortion is just fine.

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woodster
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20 Nov 2013, 1:24 am

LKL wrote:

Moviefan2k4 wrote:

so prohibiting abortion is just as much about punishing the woman for having been nasty enough to have voluntary sex, as it is about 'saving the poor zef'?

im a little confused. You just did exactly what he said liberals do and assumed his position was one of hate.

He said nothing about the morality of it, nothing about punishing them, he simply said that the decision had been made by having sex. It seems pretty clear to me.

its not an anti sex stance, its a take the way you deal with your life more seriously stance.

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20 Nov 2013, 8:41 am

woodster wrote:

LKL wrote:

Moviefan2k4 wrote:

so prohibiting abortion is just as much about punishing the woman for having been nasty enough to have voluntary sex, as it is about 'saving the poor zef'?

And what happens to the man who made her pregnant? nothing.

Since the woman is the one whose life will be impacted most, it is her decision and there is nothing wrong with her deciding she is not ready to be a mother.

Ann2011
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20 Nov 2013, 9:20 am

While the baby is inside the mother it is part of her body and it is up to her what to do with it.

It is ironic that it is the right wing that is against abortion when this is the party that wants less government interference. How more invasive can a government be than to determine what happens to a citizens body. And more than that, to interfere with an individual's right to choose to create life or choose not to?

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