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thinkinginpictures
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27 Dec 2013, 5:11 am

Kugan wrote:
Hitler himself claimed that it was indeed socialism.


What Hitler claimed and what is the reality are too very different things.

Then how come Hitler favored private corporations? In true socialism, there is no such thing as "private corporations".



thomas81
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27 Dec 2013, 8:01 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Kugan@

Which Nazis were former communists? I know Goebbels had been originally to the left, but he changed everything he believed in, so strong was his infatuation with Hitler.


Benito Mussolini and Oswald Mosley both started off as communists.

Mosley tried to bring to the UK what Hitler brought to Germany. He came quite close as far as I know.


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27 Dec 2013, 10:04 am

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's an armadillo because we made that change and edited it out. All the school kids are getting taught that, and the five news channels you have access to only use that definition now.

It's how labels work. If you're not used to it, get used to it, whatever it may be.


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27 Dec 2013, 11:10 am

thomas81 wrote:
Mosley tried to bring to the UK what Hitler brought to Germany. He came quite close as far as I know.


They never stood in a General Election. They abstained in 1935 (which would have been at the height of their power) and there wasn't an election until 1945.

We just don't know how they would have electorally panned out, but I bet very few people would have voted for them. I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had the success that the NF had in the 1970s - but even at the height of the NF's popularity, they only stood in a small number of constituencies and scored 7%-8% (at most) in general elections. Their best ever result was in West Bromwich in 1973, when Martin Webster won 16% of the vote. In general elections they did pitifully, even at the height of their popularity and never won a parliamentary seat. (Small parties are always disadvantaged in this way.)

In fact, the BNP did far better in the 2010 election than the NF ever did - they took 1.9% of the vote. I can't see them getting that next time!



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27 Dec 2013, 11:23 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kugan wrote:
Hitler himself claimed that it was indeed socialism.


What Hitler claimed and what is the reality are too very different things.

Then how come Hitler favored private corporations? In true socialism, there is no such thing as "private corporations".


Hitler implemented a planned economy, and any corporation who refused to embrace the new reforms, was nationalized. He also founded many government owned companies (Volksradio, Volkswagen, etc.). This is the polar opposite of capitalism.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and all that--but the USSR and the tabloids lobbied for it to be known as a mammal, it's still a bird.



thinkinginpictures
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27 Dec 2013, 11:28 am

Kurgan wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kugan wrote:
Hitler himself claimed that it was indeed socialism.


What Hitler claimed and what is the reality are too very different things.

Then how come Hitler favored private corporations? In true socialism, there is no such thing as "private corporations".


Hitler implemented a planned economy, and any corporation who refused to embrace the new reforms, was nationalized. He also founded many government owned companies (Volksradio, Volkswagen, etc.). This is the polar opposite of capitalism.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and all that--but the USSR and the tabloids lobbied for it to be known as a mammal, it's still a bird.


Hitler nationalized the corporations that didn't cooporate with the regime, that has more to do with authoritarian government system (which is independent of the economic system). It was more like a punishment or practical measure to increase one's political power. Those companies that did cooporate were not nationalized.

If you compare the nazis with the communists, you could as well make comparisons between an apple and a car: They are both made of atoms.



stardraigh
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27 Dec 2013, 11:36 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kugan wrote:
Hitler himself claimed that it was indeed socialism.


What Hitler claimed and what is the reality are too very different things.

Then how come Hitler favored private corporations? In true socialism, there is no such thing as "private corporations".


Hitler implemented a planned economy, and any corporation who refused to embrace the new reforms, was nationalized. He also founded many government owned companies (Volksradio, Volkswagen, etc.). This is the polar opposite of capitalism.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and all that--but the USSR and the tabloids lobbied for it to be known as a mammal, it's still a bird.


Hitler nationalized the corporations that didn't cooporate with the regime, that has more to do with authoritarian government system (which is independent of the economic system). It was more like a punishment or practical measure to increase one's political power. Those companies that did cooporate were not nationalized.

If you compare the nazis with the communists, you could as well make comparisons between an apple and a car: They are both made of atoms.


More like, the WWII era Nazi faction and Communists are both simply groups of humans being dicks to other humans, but they had their own spin on it. So very similar, but then again, so far apart.


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27 Dec 2013, 11:56 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kugan wrote:
Hitler himself claimed that it was indeed socialism.


What Hitler claimed and what is the reality are too very different things.

Then how come Hitler favored private corporations? In true socialism, there is no such thing as "private corporations".


Hitler implemented a planned economy, and any corporation who refused to embrace the new reforms, was nationalized. He also founded many government owned companies (Volksradio, Volkswagen, etc.). This is the polar opposite of capitalism.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and all that--but the USSR and the tabloids lobbied for it to be known as a mammal, it's still a bird.


Hitler nationalized the corporations that didn't cooporate with the regime, that has more to do with authoritarian government system (which is independent of the economic system). It was more like a punishment or practical measure to increase one's political power. Those companies that did cooporate were not nationalized.

If you compare the nazis with the communists, you could as well make comparisons between an apple and a car: They are both made of atoms.


Those who did cooperate were still heavily regulated by the government, and worked exactly like a government run organization would. Compare nazism to the actual right wing, collectivist dictatorships (Bahrain is an example) and then compare it to the USSR during Stalin. Where do you see the most similarities?

National socialism and communism both has a planned economy. Where Hitler saw the jews as an inferior race, Lenin saw the cossacks as inferior and Stalin saw the Ukrainians as such. Apart from a few corporations that remained private, Hitler and Stalin were identical in every way.



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27 Dec 2013, 2:02 pm

It should be pointed out that none of those industrialists had any problem with the Nazi government telling them what to do. In fact, plenty of them, like Krup of Krup Steel, had been prosecuted for collaborating with the Nazis, and for perpetrating war crimes. None of them had any problem with the forced labor the Nazis had provided for them, who they had starved and worked to death.


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27 Dec 2013, 2:03 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Kugan@

Which Nazis were former communists? I know Goebbels had been originally to the left, but he changed everything he believed in, so strong was his infatuation with Hitler.


Benito Mussolini and Oswald Mosley both started off as communists.

Mosley tried to bring to the UK what Hitler brought to Germany. He came quite close as far as I know.


I'm aware of Mussolini, but he had been an Italian Fascist. I was asking for German Nazi examples.


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27 Dec 2013, 3:11 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
It should be pointed out that none of those industrialists had any problem with the Nazi government telling them what to do. In fact, plenty of them, like Krup of Krup Steel, had been prosecuted for collaborating with the Nazis, and for perpetrating war crimes. None of them had any problem with the forced labor the Nazis had provided for them, who they had starved and worked to death.


Bosch was one of the most vocal critics of the nazi regime, if I remember correctly. Krup, Mercedes-Benz and Hugo Boss happily collaborated with the Nazi regime because the Nazi regime gave them a monopoly (fascism does not allow free market competition). The mining industry in Cuba is organized as a private cartel as well, it does not mean that Cuba is a capitalist country.

In Nazi Germany, private industries had to produce the quantity the government ordered them to produce--and the industrialists themselves wasn't allowed to make any decissions.

Hitler wrote:
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will.



Last edited by Kurgan on 27 Dec 2013, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Dec 2013, 3:13 pm

stardraigh wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Kugan wrote:
Hitler himself claimed that it was indeed socialism.


What Hitler claimed and what is the reality are too very different things.

Then how come Hitler favored private corporations? In true socialism, there is no such thing as "private corporations".


Hitler implemented a planned economy, and any corporation who refused to embrace the new reforms, was nationalized. He also founded many government owned companies (Volksradio, Volkswagen, etc.). This is the polar opposite of capitalism.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and all that--but the USSR and the tabloids lobbied for it to be known as a mammal, it's still a bird.


Hitler nationalized the corporations that didn't cooporate with the regime, that has more to do with authoritarian government system (which is independent of the economic system). It was more like a punishment or practical measure to increase one's political power. Those companies that did cooporate were not nationalized.

If you compare the nazis with the communists, you could as well make comparisons between an apple and a car: They are both made of atoms.


More like, the WWII era Nazi faction and Communists are both simply groups of humans being dicks to other humans, but they had their own spin on it. So very similar, but then again, so far apart.


Much like the current America, two groups, but both out to loot the past, present, and future.



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27 Dec 2013, 3:22 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It should be pointed out that none of those industrialists had any problem with the Nazi government telling them what to do. In fact, plenty of them, like Krup of Krup Steel, had been prosecuted for collaborating with the Nazis, and for perpetrating war crimes. None of them had any problem with the forced labor the Nazis had provided for them, who they had starved and worked to death.


Bosch was one of the most vocal critics of the nazi regime, if I remember correctly. Krup, Mercedes-Benz and Hugo Boss happily collaborated with the Nazi regime because the Nazi regime gave them a monopoly (fascism does not allow free market competition). The mining industry in Cuba is organized as a private cartel as well, it does not mean that Cuba is a capitalist country.

In Nazi Germany, private industries had to produce the quantity the government ordered them to produce--and the industrialists themselves wasn't allowed to make any decissions.

Hitler wrote:
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will.


I see from your quote that Hitler himself admitted that the Social Democrats (equivalent to America's Democrats) and organized labor were not fascists or communists - which flies in the face of the tea baggers who accuse the American left of fascism/communism.


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27 Dec 2013, 3:36 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It should be pointed out that none of those industrialists had any problem with the Nazi government telling them what to do. In fact, plenty of them, like Krup of Krup Steel, had been prosecuted for collaborating with the Nazis, and for perpetrating war crimes. None of them had any problem with the forced labor the Nazis had provided for them, who they had starved and worked to death.


Bosch was one of the most vocal critics of the nazi regime, if I remember correctly. Krup, Mercedes-Benz and Hugo Boss happily collaborated with the Nazi regime because the Nazi regime gave them a monopoly (fascism does not allow free market competition). The mining industry in Cuba is organized as a private cartel as well, it does not mean that Cuba is a capitalist country.

In Nazi Germany, private industries had to produce the quantity the government ordered them to produce--and the industrialists themselves wasn't allowed to make any decissions.

Hitler wrote:
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will.


I see from your quote that Hitler himself admitted that the Social Democrats (equivalent to America's Democrats) and organized labor were not fascists or communists - which flies in the face of the tea baggers who accuse the American left of fascism/communism.


What the Tea Party regards as left-wing, is actually center-right. While there are some whiny democrats who belong to the center-left, most are right-wingers who want a welfare system--as well as higher taxes for the people who have more money than they can spend. I've never claimed to support the far-right, but it still has next to nothing in common with the Nazis--with the commies, the situation is different.



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27 Dec 2013, 3:40 pm

Still, carrying for the needy is hardly makes a communist.


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28 Dec 2013, 3:57 am

This all connects with my discussion about the essential components of socialism

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt247764.html