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Fnord
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14 Jan 2014, 8:21 am

raisedbyignorance wrote:

Dumb question but...

If the Bible really were the word of God, then wouldn't the whole thing had been written from his POV? I admit that would make for an interesting read.

As in, "In the beginning, I created the heavens and the Earth..."?

naturalplastic
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14 Jan 2014, 10:25 am

God was thinking about his Bronze Age audience, but he didnt think ahead.

While writing Genisis he pondered all the work he had to do to fashion inanimate matter (mud) into humans. All the billions of years of intermediate steps it took: making complex organic molecules, then prokariote cells, then eukariote cells, then multicellular creatures, and so on through evolutionary time.

Then he said 'screw it'. It just put down that I fashioned adam and eve straight out of a pile of mud- and just skip all the intermediate steps because it will just confuse them. Its the moral conduct stuff that I wanna em to get anyway. Not the technical stuff.

Trouble is that that omission caused alot of confusion a couple thousand years later.

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14 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

91 wrote:

I have no issue with it being the creation of men, which is quite obviously is. The idea that God intended it to exist, maybe, the idea that he was the ghost writer of the whole thing, not likely.

So then regarding Morals and Ethics you often argue that these come from religion and without religion we would be amoral, yet here you are admitting that the so called morals in the bible are a product of the human mind and not a divine edict. I can see how the implementation of these rules has been facilitated and in some ways corrupted by religion, can you not see how this could have happened without it, much in the same way as we have governing laws today, these laws like the biblical ones come from the human mind not a divine creator.

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DentArthurDent
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14 Jan 2014, 2:41 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Trouble is that that omission caused alot of confusion a couple thousand years later.

So your all seeing, all powerful, all knowing god could not think of a better way to accomplish this avoiding all the confusion and angst. really! for example there was absolutely no need for the nonsense of making Eve out of Adams rib, after all he had just created Adam out of the dirt why not Eve. Your apology for God is riddled with inconsistencies, which is what always happens when someone tries to square the circle in fashioning knowledge to fit preconceived ideas.

91
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14 Jan 2014, 8:23 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

91 wrote:

I have no issue with it being the creation of men, which is quite obviously is. The idea that God intended it to exist, maybe, the idea that he was the ghost writer of the whole thing, not likely.

An interesting train of thought that diverges from my own views the moment you say that they originate in religion. I believe and have said, that moral values are found in God but only a very poor student of the Christian faith would make the mistake of thinking that the religion itself is God. I am also fairly certain that on just about every occasion I have mentioned that one does not need to believe in God for one to do good. I do not think that nonbelievers are immoral any more than I uphold the equal silly view that religious people are moral. People, both religious and nonreligious are capable of doing good but neither is capable of 'being good'.

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14 Jan 2014, 9:09 pm

A book found in the fiction section at your local library!

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DentArthurDent
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14 Jan 2014, 9:39 pm

91 wrote:

I believe and have said, that moral values are found in God

So if as you suggest the bible is written by man and that he was not the ghost writer, how then does one know the mind of god in relation to morals or for that matter anything? And by the way from my recollection of your prior arguments in the above statement you are dramatically increasing the ability of a godless humanity to develop morals.

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14 Jan 2014, 10:12 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

A book found in the fiction section at your local library!

If only this were true.

91
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14 Jan 2014, 10:55 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

91 wrote:

I believe and have said, that moral values are found in God

Just because the Bible was written by men does not mean the people who wrote it did not have a unique understanding of God. Morality is grounded in God and just like any form of knowledge contains truth that is available both by revelation and by reason. I certainly believe that Jesus was God and as such his statement to love one another as you love God to be the most important precept for any moral behavior. Although I have my doubts about the historicity of certain passages, I do not see grounds for rejecting the most significant portions of the work.

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DentArthurDent
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15 Jan 2014, 1:22 am

So does morality come from the New or Old Testament or is it from both, and the people who had a "unique understanding of God" which testament are they from or are you simply referring to the disciples of Jesus.

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15 Jan 2014, 1:36 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

I am always weary of people who end their questions with a full stop. As for the answer, it sits within the vast amount of work on the subject of Christian ethics, I don't see an easy choice. Christ's own words are obviously the most important but you can learn a lot from the Old Testament as well.

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AspieOtaku
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15 Jan 2014, 3:53 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

A book found in the fiction section at your local library!

If only this were true.

At mine it is and under the subacetgory of religion but then again i no longer live in the bilble belt but in silicon valley!

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15 Jan 2014, 3:42 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roB2odNZE[/youtube]

Sweetleaf
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15 Jan 2014, 3:43 pm

Fnord wrote:

What is the Bible?

A collection of largely apocryphal stories of dubious origin that have been complied together for the last 2400 years (appr.), and that may or may not be based on actual historical events.

^this

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15 Jan 2014, 4:17 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGjziqe_Zak&list=TLIdbmi8cBhaGyJage9qYUBKte53S2MWEI[/youtube] :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DentArthurDent
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15 Jan 2014, 4:23 pm

91 wrote:

So sorry for keeping you awake. The old testament as you have already postulated is not the word of god, therefore it must be the word of man, and therefore any moral teaching held within it are derived at via human thought. Yet you confuse the issue by stating "the people who wrote it did not have a unique understanding of God" what exactly is this "unique understanding"?

With regard to "Christ's own words" I was not aware that we have them, nothing in the new testament was written first hand by either Jesus nor any one of his disciples.

Lastly could you please clarify whether or not you believe humanity could have developed morals and ethics similar to the ones we have today without the existence of religion? eg do unto others and love thy neighbour etc.

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