If men were oppressed

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AspieOtaku
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11 Feb 2014, 3:45 pm

thomas81 wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

That film made me laugh

It would, wouldn't it.

AspieOtaku wrote:

because a lot of the stuff in that film does happen only not in a grand scale.

Or it does happen, but goes unreported. Either because of traumatised victims or chauvinist and indifferent police.

AspieOtaku wrote:

If a man is raped or sexually harrassed by a woman they laugh at him or don't believe him, if a man is abused by a woman they either laugh at him or falsely accuse him of being the batterer. But thats life, women deserve more rights than men anyway.

When you start to use female on male rape to compare you know you really are grasping at straws.

Its debateable if its even medically possible for a woman to rape a man, let alone quote any actual incidences.

As for the rights that men lack, it isnt for the gains of women.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlV3yEHUn9Q[/youtube]

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Last edited by AspieOtaku on 11 Feb 2014, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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11 Feb 2014, 3:47 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

So in conclusion yes, men DO collectively bring their own problems upon themselves.

Isn't it hypocritical to say this but then decry the victim-blaming of women?

No, its a fallacy to blame rape on women on things like rape because of how they dress.

The onus is on the man not to commit the rape!

The video touches on that very issue actually by portraying the men as being co-erced into wearing balaclavas.

That's dancing around the question, how is not hypocritical for you to blame male victims while decrying it for women?

thomas81
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11 Feb 2014, 3:54 pm

mds_02 wrote:

Every woman who ever gave into societal pressure to conform (that is to say, the vast majority) contributed to the system that kept women from gaining the influence they deserved. Women are thus collectively responsible for all the issues they face.

Sound like victim-blaming BS to you? Because that's what it sounds like to me. Yet you make the exact same argument in reference to men.

That is why you are biased. The smugness is why you are an as*hole.

Your argument is a fallacy because it doesnt take the conditioning of the day into account. Women were traditionally FORCED to conform as a traditionally disposessed group, they had no choice. The same cannot be said of men today because men are still in control of the institutions i have already listed.

It is powerful men who insist that men must not be meek, that they must be tough and show no sensitivity. It isn't women doing this. It was men who created this culture, and it is only men who can remove this culture.

mds_02 wrote:

Have you considered the possibility that it is the lack of resources, and the lack of advocacy that makes men bottle up their problems in the first place? And that it is ideas just like what you are pushing now, that men are automatically advantaged, that prevents people from realizing that men might need that help in the first place.

The problem is alpha men who sustain the culture discouraging beta men not to speak up and fight for analogous help. Not me pushing the ideas about the unequal playing field that still exists.

mds_02 wrote:

And? The men in those positions of power are a tiny tiny minority. It sucks that women who aim for those positions are at a disadvantage, but the fact that most CEOs are male does not impact my, or the vast majority of men's, lives in any meaningful way.

Yes, but that tiny minority of men have a vastly disproportionate balance of power on their hands. The fact that the institutions are male controlled enables them by in large, to keep womens grievances out of the lexicon and enforce things like the sexual objectification of women in the media and popular culture.

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thomas81
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11 Feb 2014, 3:58 pm

Jacoby wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

So in conclusion yes, men DO collectively bring their own problems upon themselves.

Isn't it hypocritical to say this but then decry the victim-blaming of women?

That's dancing around the question, how is not hypocritical for you to blame male victims while decrying it for women?

because your comparison is a fallacy. Also, as i have said twice now to mds, if we are reducing this to a male vs female argument, without taking other factors like social and economic background into consideration, it was men who created the cultures that sustain the problems faced by men on a disproportionate basis.

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Kurgan
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11 Feb 2014, 4:04 pm

thomas81 wrote:

A brilliant short French film set in a parallel universe where MRA's have legitimate arguments.

http://www.upworthy.com/a-french-film-s ... like-kinda

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A#t=381[/youtube]

The problem with these kind of videos, is that the creators seem to think that all men approve of rape and sexual harassment. Rape mentality is on an individual level, and isn't caused by movies, democratically elected politicans or video games. Videos like this, also seem to think that all men are born with a golden ticket that women pay the price for, which is not the case.

AspieOtaku
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11 Feb 2014, 4:09 pm

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Justified sexism against men in better terms, that all men like to sexually harass and rape women.

thomas81
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11 Feb 2014, 4:11 pm

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

you're attacking a strawman.

I don't believe that the creators necessarilly believe this, but are trying to create a short sharp shock, about the reality that women still face on a significant basis.

The fact that you feel the need to react defensively means you are the sort of man that the video is aimed at.

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Kurgan
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11 Feb 2014, 4:18 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Who's attacking straw men now?

I get what the message of the movie is, but it criticizes society for something that should be blamed on individuals. As long as it's physically possible, there will always be bad eggs who rape, whether we're talking Saudi-Arabia or Iceland. Punish rape more severly and allocate less resources on petty crime and more on rape; the problem is not the attitudes of society or the attitudes of men.

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11 Feb 2014, 4:24 pm

Kurgan wrote:

But forms of prejudice and discrimination aren't defeated by reducing them to the individual level.

They can only be defeated when the empowered group accepts its collective onus to dissavow itself of whichever phenomenon is punishing the opposite group.

Men have a duty to ostracise mysoginists and sexual predators and whenever the opportunity arises, to call them out on their behaviour. Otherwise we are complicit through our willful ignorance.

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Kurgan
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11 Feb 2014, 4:33 pm

thomas81 wrote:

But forms of prejudice and discrimination aren't defeated by reducing them to the individual level.

Discrimination is different from rape, and I agree that awareness needs to be raised about that (and the situation is worse in the US than it is in almost all Western-European countries).

Quote:

They can only be defeated when the empowered group accepts its collective onus to dissavow itself of whichever phenomenon is punishing the opposite group.

This is true. Futhermore, the uenmpowered group would also have to accept more challenges (take something more difficult than social studies in college, or work as something more demanding than a hairdresser) rather than to take the more convenient path.

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Men have a duty to ostracise mysoginists and sexual predators and whenever the opportunity arises, to call them out on their behaviour. Otherwise we are complicit through our willful ignorance.

Sexual predators are hard to spot, but I'd gladly beat the crap out of one if I saw him.

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11 Feb 2014, 4:43 pm

thomas81 wrote:

But forms of prejudice and discrimination aren't defeated by reducing them to the individual level.

Nope that is how you defeat them, otherwise you get into more prejudice and discrimination.

Just because I'm a man why should I be responsible for other men that abuse women. It has nothing to do with me.

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11 Feb 2014, 4:56 pm

Just want to say something about the rape thing.
Female-on-male rape can happen, it happens, not as much as male-on-female rape or male-on-male rape but it still happens (not to mention that female-on-female rape exists as well), it happens and I know for sure it does because my father escaped one because of his quick reflexes when he was younger.
But the reason why male victims that were assaulted by females are not believed or laughed at it's usually because of men themselves.
Men have built their image through centuries to be that of the strong one who must never be hurt and has to be harsh and emotionless, otherwise he is less than a human being and "not a real man".
Every time I see an article online about a guy being raped by a woman, I see comments like "he was a lucky guy" or "I wish I were in his place" or "men can't get raped by women" or "if he didn't like it, he was gay". And who posts these comments? Always men. I've never heard a woman deny that female-on-male rape can happen or say that it is ok or that the victim probably enjoyed it or that he wasn't gay if he didn't. Actually, I've always seen women being quite supportive towards male victims even when the perpetrator was female. The same can't be said about most men in my experience.
If men are in this situation it's because of the current "ideal" image men have of their gender, that is an old, old, ancient one.
Of course not all men are like this; some are modern and acknowledge the fact that women can be rapists as well.
If maybe most men admitted that they can be vulnerable as well this image of themselves would disappear and they wouldn't cause themselves all these problems.

Note that this comes from a person who doesn't identify with either gender, therefore it comes from a genderless perspective.

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11 Feb 2014, 5:24 pm

thomas81 wrote:

A brilliant short French film set in a parallel universe where MRA's have legitimate arguments.

That film reminded me of my favorite French movie: Calmos.

A few clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wACXYmVoQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db98-xTpMcs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0atFoxCW7rk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEuVGMTKcHk

A very bizarre "war of the sexes" kind of movie, with LOTS of twists and turns in the plot. I highly recommend it.

thomas81
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11 Feb 2014, 5:41 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Discrimination is different from rape, and I agree that awareness needs to be raised about that (and the situation is worse in the US than it is in almost all Western-European countries).

I was more talking about mysoginist culture in general, not just rape.

It could also include issues like the unequal pay issue, the objectivity of women in popular culture and the lack of political efficacy of women.

Kurgan wrote:

...or is it more that the 'successful' jobs have been monopolised by men, not because women are innately non careerist but because they've been stared away from that road by men not wanting to lose their power to women, and women by in large end up lumbered as primary child carers?

Anti women culture can be partly defeated by simple things, like dead beat dads manning up and accepting more of their responsibilities.

MR_BOGAN wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

But forms of prejudice and discrimination aren't defeated by reducing them to the individual level.

No-one is saying all men are responsible on an individual basis but as men we should be responsible citizens and not uphold cultures that serve to undermine the ideal of sexual equality.

It could mean voting at elections for candidates that will oppose sexism (either way).

It could mean actively taking a stand against men who tell sexist jokes or think the abuse or assault of women is acceptable.

It could be as simple as not subscribing to ideas of culpible female rape victim arguments or boycotting sexist media.

You dont need to accept responsibility for every incident of rape but as a man you have the power to be a responsible citizen and make a difference.

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Kurgan
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11 Feb 2014, 5:51 pm

thomas81 wrote:

It could also include issues like the unequal pay issue, the objectivity of women in popular culture and the lack of political efficacy of women.

The unequal pay issue does not take into consideration that men work more than women--or that men typically have more challenging jobs and more challenging educations. With that being said, female lawyers, doctors and engineers could receive a higher salary.

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A good feminist is someone who takes the challenge of going to a difficult college course, works in a demanding job, or climbs the political ladder--and thus sets an example to other women (regardless of whether said person is a girly-girl or a butch). A good feminist does not blame men for her shortcomings in life.

Having children is a choice; if it becomes more socially accepted for men to work less to spend more time with the kids, I'm pretty sure that the traditional role pattern will become more egalitarian.

Quote:

Anti women culture can be partly defeated by simple things, like dead beat dads manning up and accepting more of their responsibilities.

To be fair, deadbeat moms are just as common as deadbeat dads. The former doesn't carry the same stigma as the latter, though. Since women almost always get custody, the former also does more harm, given that the CPS has very little formal power.

thomas81
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11 Feb 2014, 5:53 pm

droppy wrote:

thats more or less where i stand, but i really doubt that cases of female on male rape are even registerable to be taken seriously in the same context of the male on female rape debate.

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