The US Constitution does not define any of its terms

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ruveyn
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16 Feb 2014, 8:40 pm

Raptor wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
I must say, though, that given all the American wrangling over "original intent", Jefferson's idea of a new constitution every 20 years seems appealing.

Ah, sort of like a flavor of the month constitution. That way the powers to be can write a new one according to what they want and/or whatever's in vogue with the unwashed masses during that particular era. No thanks, call me non-progressive and backward (it would be a compliment)but I like the constitution the way it is. Even the original fist 10 amendments are fully applicable in the 21st century.


I think what Jefferson had in mind is that people of each generation should have a chance to specify what government they want.

The basic constitution was formulated in 1789 and the last major structural change was the 17 th amendment which specified that senators to congress should be popularly elected and not appointed by the governments of the state they represent.

That was back around 1913. Hardly anyone now alive has had a voice in specifying the structure of the government.

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16 Feb 2014, 8:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
I must say, though, that given all the American wrangling over "original intent", Jefferson's idea of a new constitution every 20 years seems appealing.

Ah, sort of like a flavor of the month constitution. That way the powers to be can write a new one according to what they want and/or whatever's in vogue with the unwashed masses during that particular era. No thanks, call me non-progressive and backward (it would be a compliment)but I like the constitution the way it is. Even the original fist 10 amendments are fully applicable in the 21st century.


I think what Jefferson had in mind is that people of each generation should have a chance to specify what government they want.


Yeah, I remember a quote of his like that about future generations being stuck with a government designed in the past. I kind of agree in principal but at the same time I'm not sure I want to see it in practice for the same reasons stated above.


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zer0netgain
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17 Feb 2014, 6:31 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
TheGoggles wrote:

Whoa, you really DO worship the founding fathers and everything. Even invoking "evil." Pretty sad, man!


Zer0netgain is an Alex Jones fan and paleoconservative.


Wrong on both counts.

However, there was a process put in place to redefine the Constitution within the Constitution. Letting "scholars" and judges redefine it from the bench IS NOT the prescribed process.

The vast majority of Americans are utterly ignorant of anything dealing with the law. It used to be that a fundamental legal education was part of the collegiate experience. The lawyers put an end to that because people who know the law don't need lawyers.

If you just read commercial outlines on first-year law school classes, you'd know enough of the law to avoid 90% of the problems average people get into out of ignorance of the law.



visagrunt
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17 Feb 2014, 11:18 am

The United States Constitution was a creature of its time--statutes in the 18th century did not contain definitions of terms, that was a much, much later aspect of legislative drafting, that became part of the ongoing tug-of-war between the two law making branches of government.

In my view, constitutional documents must be flexible enough to speak for all time. They cannot be dispensed with, they cannot be readily repealed, and they are intentionally difficult to amend. That creates a very real risk of stagnation.

The principle of law is that all statute speaks in the present tense. However, no drafters, no matter how gifted, can predict the circumstances to which their statutes will be applied over the centuries. An attempt to bind things rigidly for all time creates the very real risk that the only potential response is to dispose of it. Many constitutions have fallen into desuetude for precisely this reason.

Conservatives, almost by definition, prefer little or no change in constitutional arrangements, preferring the status quo or--better yet--the status quo ante over innovation. For this reason, conservatives almost always wind up on the wrong side of history. Human societies change over time. We make progress and we change our societies to accommodate that progress. We innovate, and our societies change as innovation takes hold.

Constitutions like those of the United States, Canada and Australia, and especially the special case of the United Kingdom, survive because of their flexibility. It is a precious feature of these nations, and it should not be lightly criticized.


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sliqua-jcooter
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17 Feb 2014, 10:05 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Letting "scholars" and judges redefine it from the bench IS NOT the prescribed process.


Actually, that's exactly what the process is. That's the entire purpose of case law and precedent. Though, the way it's more commonly explained is that courts use existing laws and apply them to different factual circumstances - which sets a precedent for further cases. You're not interpreting what the meaning of the law is, you're interpreting it's application to different sets of facts. See Brown v. Board of Education.

The Constitution doesn't define many of the terms because it doesn't have to. Ambiguity was intentional, and that ambiguity was meant to be resolved by the judicial system.


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beneficii
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17 Feb 2014, 10:16 pm

visagrunt wrote:
The United States Constitution was a creature of its time--statutes in the 18th century did not contain definitions of terms, that was a much, much later aspect of legislative drafting, that became part of the ongoing tug-of-war between the two law making branches of government.

In my view, constitutional documents must be flexible enough to speak for all time. They cannot be dispensed with, they cannot be readily repealed, and they are intentionally difficult to amend. That creates a very real risk of stagnation.

The principle of law is that all statute speaks in the present tense. However, no drafters, no matter how gifted, can predict the circumstances to which their statutes will be applied over the centuries. An attempt to bind things rigidly for all time creates the very real risk that the only potential response is to dispose of it. Many constitutions have fallen into desuetude for precisely this reason.

Conservatives, almost by definition, prefer little or no change in constitutional arrangements, preferring the status quo or--better yet--the status quo ante over innovation. For this reason, conservatives almost always wind up on the wrong side of history. Human societies change over time. We make progress and we change our societies to accommodate that progress. We innovate, and our societies change as innovation takes hold.

Constitutions like those of the United States, Canada and Australia, and especially the special case of the United Kingdom, survive because of their flexibility. It is a precious feature of these nations, and it should not be lightly criticized.


Sadly, with recent rulings from the Supreme Court, the U.S. Constitution may be losing its flexibility.


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18 Feb 2014, 3:21 am

beneficii wrote:
Of course, what is the point of giving the military the right to own arms?


It didn't do that. What it did do was give Congress the power to organize, arm, and discipline the Militia, and the States the power to appoint officers and train them.

The Congress shall have Power To ...provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress....

ARTICLE I, SECTION 8, CLAUSE 16


Organizing the Militia