Red Death - The Horrors Of Communism

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Raptor
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19 Feb 2014, 1:54 am

LKL wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is it worse to die from a communist totalitarian massacre, or a fascist totalitarian massacre?

I think the fascists had better looking uniforms.

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MR_BOGAN
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19 Feb 2014, 2:40 am

Nambo wrote:

Russian "Communism" was just a trick to get the peasants to overthrow their Monarchy so a different ruling elite could take their place, leaving the peasant class even worst off than before.

Has true Communism ever existed?

Maybe Savador Allende from Chile he was democraticly elected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

But in democracy, you will never have pure communism, because it's always going to whatever flavour gets voted in.

You could call Augusto Pinochet a capitalist dictator.

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DentArthurDent
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19 Feb 2014, 2:41 am

91 wrote:

LKL wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is it worse to die from a communist totalitarian massacre, or a fascist totalitarian massacre?

Well I think you just hit the main point. It does not matter what your views are, the real test is being universally opposed to totalitarianism.

Well looky looky here, we actually agree on something

. Of course this is only a fleeting fly by because I would argue that totalitarianism is the antithesis of communism. to which you will state that any attempt to create a socialist state (a necessary platform for communism) will invariably lead to totalitarianism. I somewhat agree, but this has more to do with my current despair regarding the ability of humanity to look out for each other and do the right thing, than an objective review of the circumstances leading to the failure of the Russian and German workers states, and the rise of Mao *edit* and Stalin

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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 19 Feb 2014, 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

drh1138
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19 Feb 2014, 2:48 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

No, as none of those actually fit the definition of communism....none of those are classless societies.

This "No True Scotsman" logic that leftists (including, formerly, myself, though I was always on the libertarian end of the left wing, and never admired the USSR) employ in response to every indictment of the consequences of communist ideology is a red herring; it doesn't matter if the society in question was some nebulous and unachievable "communist" utopia or a proletarian "socialist" dictatorship -- it operated upon the principles of Marxism, and had disastrous consequences for just about everyone involved. Playing with definitions doesn't detract from what it was.

George Orwell, '1984' wrote:

We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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19 Feb 2014, 4:09 am

Nambo wrote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfe__szTD7U[/youtube]

That's incredibly sad. My maternal Grandmother's people had come from West Prussia, and had kept in touch with relatives still living there up to the Second World War. All contact with them was lost after that. I have no idea if they had survived the war, or if they had fallen victim to either the Soviets or to their own Nazi government (despite being Prussian Lutherans, my Grandmother's family had had a Jewish family name).

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krankes_hirn
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19 Feb 2014, 4:29 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

No, as none of those actually fit the definition of communism....none of those are classless societies.

That argument really has gotten old. We have had n iterations with different characteristics of applying communism, and the vast majority ends up with a crazy dictator, lots of dead and impoverishment. And still people come and say "We should do cummunism, this time we'll get it right though there's nothing realy different betwwen what we are attempting and all those failures. There's something really flawed with communism and people keep saying "Oh, well. Next time we'll get it right"

That being said, defenders of communism always end up using logical fallacies to defend whatever they are saying because somehow they think that if they can make their ideas sound good or seem to make sense, that is enough for it to make sense.

Look at what's happening in Venezuela. I still can't believe there are people defending that government. I cna believe there are people still saying that communism is worth a try.

91
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19 Feb 2014, 4:32 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

91 wrote:

LKL wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is it worse to die from a communist totalitarian massacre, or a fascist totalitarian massacre?

Well I think you just hit the main point. It does not matter what your views are, the real test is being universally opposed to totalitarianism.

Well looky looky here, we actually agree on something

We probably agree on a fair bit even if we have rather different world views. I personally don't think that Utopian projects are possible, we had our chance in paradise. People who try to enact them always end up putting the idea in front of the person. Utopia is at odds with the concept of human governance because it sees contemporary people as a means to some ends. Whereas, in good governance (and in life), people are seen as ends in themselves and the state is designed to accommodate them, under the assumption that we could theoretically have been born to any position within that society. That is the sort of egalitarianism I go in for, not a social project but a social contract.

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DentArthurDent
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19 Feb 2014, 5:39 am

91 wrote:

People who try to enact them always end up putting the idea in front of the person.

So true, shame you are such a delusional. religionist, otherwise we might actually get along. :wink:

BTW; regarding our other discussions, I do not deliberately end questions with a full stop. Rather my knowledge and implementation of punctuation is woeful and any constructive help would be welcomed.

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19 Feb 2014, 10:26 am

These threads are boring and pointless. While "dictatorship of the 'proletariat'" is a big part of marxist-leninist ideology, It's not communism in on itself.

No, you didn't convert me to capitalism.

Last edited by RushKing on 19 Feb 2014, 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

appletheclown
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19 Feb 2014, 10:30 am

LKL wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is it worse to die from a communist totalitarian massacre, or a fascist totalitarian massacre?

The number of people dead.

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sonofghandi
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19 Feb 2014, 10:35 am

krankes_hirn wrote:

We have had n iterations with different characteristics of applying communism, and the vast majority ends up with a crazy dictator, lots of dead and impoverishment. And still people come and say "We should do cummunism, this time we'll get it right though there's nothing realy different betwwen what we are attempting and all those failures. There's something really flawed with communism and people keep saying "Oh, well. Next time we'll get it right"

You could substitute any form of government into this statement in the place of "communism" and it would still read true, although in some cases you would also have to substitute the words, "a crazy dictator" with "an elite and exclusive minority in power."

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TheGoggles
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19 Feb 2014, 10:40 am

appletheclown wrote:

LKL wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is it worse to die from a communist totalitarian massacre, or a fascist totalitarian massacre?

The number of people dead.

So it's like a high score in a video game. Only with mass graves.

Here's an idea: Hold people accountable for every atrocity that is committed instead of skimming over the ones that make us uncomfortable. In fact, did you know that the Ottoman Empire attempted to exterminate every Armenian person in 1915? The death toll was around 1.5 million. If you've never heard about this, it may be because America refuses to formally recognize that it ever happened because Turkey would get really upset if we did. Obama actually promised the Armenian community that he would recognize it, but that I reckon the military said "lol no" to that suggestion pretty quickly.

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19 Feb 2014, 10:46 am

sonofghandi wrote:

krankes_hirn wrote:

Republics, Democracies and Pacifistic Nationalist States are no where near as bad as Communist, Fascist,
or Imperialist States.

You can't substitute any form just because you say they can.

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ruveyn
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19 Feb 2014, 10:58 am

Which one of our brethren in PPR will list the body count and butcher bill for capitalistic societies?

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19 Feb 2014, 11:01 am

Nambo wrote:

About as much as "true" capitalism.

No True Scotsman would refuse haggis or insult Robert Burns.

ruveyn

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19 Feb 2014, 11:03 am

Raptor wrote:

LKL wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is it worse to die from a communist totalitarian massacre, or a fascist totalitarian massacre?

I think the fascists had better looking uniforms.

And their marching music was much better too.

ruveyn.

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