Do you think that president Putin deserve peace noble prize?

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I agree. And what if Crimea wanted to be part of Russia for real?

They ain't saying go to war. For a start Russia has a nuclear deterrent. They are saying treat Russia as potentially dangerous again depending how big its army grows. It implies extend NATO and nuclear deterrent coverage to all Russia's neighbours in one move, and cease to consider it a coexistence need to be restrained about doing that.

I have not supported NATO's Asian wars, and most obviously not volunteered to take part in them. they have done serious wrongs in cost to life. But they have not annexed countries and abolished their own governments.

They haven't abolished governments? That's our specialty, almost all of these "uprisings" have been stoked from the outside. The US spent $5 billion developing the "democratic institutions" of Ukraine only to support the illegal overthrow of the democratically elected government. What did NATO do in Libya? What did they do in Kosovo? What did they want to do in Syria?

Crimea is Russia and has been for hundreds of years, it has never been Ukrainian. The people of Crimea exercised their right to 'choose their own future' and they voted to join the Russian Federation, how can anybody deny them this while supporting the coup in Kiev? It makes no sense to me. Crimea was able to achieve this peacefully, it's not as if Russia bombed the **** of them and occupied them for years like we have in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia's annexation seems a lot kinder when you compare it to the death we rain down on countries almost daily. If you're lucky, maybe you'll get an IMF bailout with us. To often, Americans fail to look in the mirror. We cannot live by the creed 'do as I say, no as I do'.

NATO has outlived its usefulness, NATO is dangerous to the rest of the world because of its own aggressive expansionist foreign policy. Mikhail Gorbachev only agreed to allow the reunification of East and West Germany on condition that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east" which the US promptly disregarded and has since expanded to other former Warsaw Pact countries Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Albania. They have their eyes on Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova too. All after the fall of the Soviet Union. The US wanted to put nuclear missiles on Russia's doorstep, how can Russia be faulted for reacting to this when the US would threaten the entire world with nuclear holocaust if the shoe was on the other foot.

I support a foreign policy of neutrality, the kind that our founders intended. I post this quote by Thomas Jefferson a lot but I very much agree with it, "peace, commerce, and honest friendship to all; entangling alliances with none". I feel no obligation to Eastern Europe or the Middle East, I don't care if my government signed a piece of paper with another, I wouldn't go fight and die for them and I'm not a hypocrite that would let my brothers and sisters do it for me either. There is no reason for the US and Russia to be enemies, the world would be a better safer place without this Cold War mindset our politicians and media still live in. Threats and militarism cannot be the answer, we live in a messed up world when those are the preferred methods over diplomacy.

Last edited by Jacoby on 02 Apr 2014, 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Then why doesn't Russia have the right to build GRU operated nuclear deterrent in Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean?
We aren't the kings of the world, nor should we alone be the ones who protect it. To many people seek to treat Russia as a potential enemy, when we worked so hard to end the cold war.

Regan might start writhing in his grave at the thought of it.
We don't need another cold war.

Because Putin has stated shamelessly that the worst thing in modern history was the dissolution of the Soviet Union and he became who he is through a long career as a KGB agent. They have been waiting approximately six years and invading country after country, trying to rebuild the USSR.

Of course, I realize you were joking. It's just that it's a tense situation and I can't believe anyone has any doubts as to Putin's motives. It was an invasion and people were held at gunpoint. It is also a fact that public opinion in Crimea is against Russia and the last president they had they actually exiled because he was pro-Russian and he was trying to undermine their constitution and make them a part of Russia. We act so sensitive when we "hear them out" and say that the Crimeans want Russian control, but they in fact don't and haven't. What we are really doing is being incredibly insensitive if we give any credence to this garbage of a peaceful occupation. They held airports and town halls at gunpoint and brought in tanks and aircraft.

And guess what? This whole crap of "protecting the indigenous Russian population of Crimea from the unstable country" was the same BS they tried to feed us with Georgia. I can't believe how short our worldwide attention span is that any western country is taking that claim seriously.

Obama did order that we should invade Libya, he did give fighter jets to Egypt, and so on and so forth. He actually has authorized more separate engagements and generally seen to it that there has been more death in the middle east (maybe not american but more total) than under Bush.

Putin said something along the lines of "whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart, whoever wants it back has no brain". As I said some Americans lack the ability to look in the mirror and see things from other perspectives. Georgia is a good example, Georgia started its war with Russia by shelling and later invading South Ossetia whose autonomy along with Abkhazia is guaranteed by Russia. Ethnic Georgian nationalists took power and declared independence from the Soviet Union which the Ossetians didn't. The Georgian leaders would go on to abolish South Ossetia's autonomy and a war between the two was fought to preserve back in 91-92. Fast forward to the nationalist government of Mikheil Saakashvili whose stated goals were to retake South Ossetia and Abkhazia and to join NATO, that's exactly what they attempted to do but Russia wasn't having it. Russia is a protector not a foreign occupiers to these people, that's the biggest difference between what Russia has done in Crimea/South Ossetia/Abkhazia and what the US has done in too many countries to name. We hear a lot about winning the "hearts and minds" of the people we occupy but what invasion has the US been involved with since the Korean war where we could objectively argue that the hearts and mind of the people were on our side. I support self determination and I believe that is what is happening in these places.

I can only assume that you are being willfully ignorant.

The Russians gave the Crimeans a choice: join us, or tough it out on your own. They were not allowed to be part of Ukraine any more. There was voter intimidation, and accusations of fraud. In 1991, a referendum found that Crimeans wanted to remain part of Ukraine. [url=http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-signs-pointed-to-crimea-independence-vote-but-polls-didnt/[/url]Opinion polls from before the invasion indicated that most Crimeans did not want to be part of Russia[/url].

The Nobel committee cannot see the future.

Thank you. All of this talk of self determination is a moot point if Crimeans really don't want to join Russia. And like I said they just exiled their last president for being pro-Russia. If Russia was protecting Crimea it wouldn't have invaded it. It invaded Crimea when Russian soldiers didn't just take up a defensive position but they held key positions including airports and town halls at gunpoint.

And yes folks, the US isn't very spotless at all when it comes to this stuff. That doesn't excuse this behavior however and the US certainly doesn't annex and conquer (not just occupy but acquire) other countries every six or seven years. The US doesn't have nearly as terrible of a previous history and the US president isn't an indoctrinated member of a terrible organization that survived the USSR, the KGB. Putin was a KGB agent and has been quoted several times saying that Trotsky, Stalin, Kruschev, etc. were all great. We have a heart when we think that the dissolution of the Soviet Union is a good thing because we actually care that Russians were thrown into prison, shot and buried in mass graves, taken to gulags and concentration camps, starved, and generally mistreated by the USSR and the KGB in particular.

The turnout in 1991 was something like 35% in Crimea, I imagine it was just thought of as a foregone conclusion that the rest Ukraine was going to vote for independence and that depressed the turnout. It doesn't really matter since the situation has changed, independence may not of been what it was chalked up to be. It's not even just the historic claim or the ethnic Russians, the fact is going forward Crimea is better off being apart of Russia rather than Ukraine. That's obvious to the people living there, they can live under IMF mandated austerity and pay double for gas prices or be apart of Russia and have their pay tripled and pensions guaranteed. The 2nd option was to stay part of Ukraine restoring the 1992 Crimean constitution, nobody voted for it but a small percentage. The Ukrainian nationalists and bankers which control the government would of never allowed Crimea to hold the referendum so Russia's protection was necessary.

As I said, the current government of Ukraine would of never allowed the referendum to proceed if Russian troops weren't there. You say that they don't really want to be apart of Russia, that's not what I've heard or seen.

As for the US not annexing or conquering, they certainly do conquer. Just because we don't extend these countries voting rights or give them status as a territory of the US doesn't mean that our government or our corporations don't reap the benefits or that these countries maintain anything but nominal independence, they exist under the dominion of the US.

Putin was a part of the KGB, George Bush was the head of the CIA. What's the difference? Putin is a nationalist and like how Americans are proud of their past despite some ugliness so are Russians. Saying your proud of America doesn't mean you support slavery or the genocide of Native Americans, just as being proud of Russia's history doesn't mean you support the worst of Stalinism. The collapse of the Soviet Union came as pretty big shock to Russians and they suffered a lot in the 90s and were humiliated by the US, it's not hard to understand how some Russians might look back at the peak of prestige and power.