Jesus: Yahweh's "Only Begotten" Son?
DentArthurDent
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28 Mar 2014, 9:16 pm
ArrantPariah wrote:
:?: Why did Joseph need to be a virgin?
As I said it gets even more ridiculous Joseph
The other side to the coin is unpalatable, Joseph and Mary enjoyed a normal marriage, had lots of sex and raised several children, and according to number scholars they had identical twin boys, named Jesus and Judas (Judas Didymus Thomas - Didymus is greek for twin Thomas is aramaic for twin). Acts Of Thomas
Not only does this place the birth of Jesus in a completely common human/earthly setting, it also gives rise to questions regarding his death and supposed resurrection.
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29 Mar 2014, 7:02 pm
It's only Roman Catholics who believe that Joseph was celibate throughout his life. The Eastern Orthodox believe that the four other brothers of Jesus named in the synoptic gospels (James, Joses, Simeon, and Judas) were his sons from a prior marriage. Most Protestants believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but had normal marital relations with Joseph afterwards, and that they were Jesus' natural brothers. The plain text of the gospels support the Protestant view. Luke states that Jesus was her "first born son" (the clear implication being that there were others), and Matthew states that Mary and Joseph did not have marital relations until after Jesus was born.
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Kraichgauer
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29 Mar 2014, 9:45 pm
Basso53 wrote:
It's only Roman Catholics who believe that Joseph was celibate throughout his life. The Eastern Orthodox believe that the four other brothers of Jesus named in the synoptic gospels (James, Joses, Simeon, and Judas) were his sons from a prior marriage. Most Protestants believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but had normal marital relations with Joseph afterwards, and that they were Jesus' natural brothers. The plain text of the gospels support the Protestant view. Luke states that Jesus was her "first born son" (the clear implication being that there were others), and Matthew states that Mary and Joseph did not have marital relations until after Jesus was born.
That's absolutely correct. I can't speak for the Eastern Orthodox tradition, but Protestantism sought to emphasize the fact that while Christ was sinless, his mother, despite having something extraordinary happen to her, was just a mere mortal - and thus a sinner - like the rest of us. And the original Protestant reformers weren't so tied up with notions of chastity equating holiness as their Catholic counterparts were.
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29 Mar 2014, 10:01 pm
DentArthurDent wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
:?: Why did Joseph need to be a virgin?
As I said it gets even more ridiculous Joseph
.
Well, that's weird. It also contradicts Catholic teachings regarding the duty of husbands and wives to be available to each other for coitus.
29 Mar 2014, 11:31 pm
The phrase "sons of God" in Genesis refers to angels, often called the Nephelim by scholars. Some believe these were fallen angels, but I disagree. Folks have also cited Jesus words about angels not marrying, but they forget the part about that being the case in heaven, not on Earth. Whatever the reason, a plain reading of Genesis makes it clear that the giants mentioned in genesis had heavenly heritage, and some believe that's where stories like Hercules and such came from.
By contrast, the title "Son of God" (note the capital S) is attributed to Jesus by His apostles, and Christ eventually admits His divinity when questioned at trial by Pilate. Jesus also uses the title "Son of Man", which some say is a mere reference to Him being human. However, it actually alludes to a vision God gave Daniel in the Old Testament, where the prophet saw "one like a son of man, who was given authority to rule over all nations".
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30 Mar 2014, 5:34 pm
ArrantPariah wrote:
In John 3 we have
Other translations drop the word "begotten"
The Nicene Creed has the word "begotten" in it
http://www.confessingumc.org/our-story/ ... les-creed/
But now he is "eternally begotten?" What in blazes is that supposed to mean?
Do Christians believe that Jesus did come into existence by a process of reproduction?
And, that Jesus was the only son that Yahweh ever begot? Then how do the Christians explain away:
Those are the "sons of God" cumming in unto the daughters of men, and begetting giants. Jesus had to have had some brothers. Yahweh had to have begotten these sons, too. Not just Jesus.
Christian theology apparently falls apart completely.
King Jame's Version wrote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Other translations drop the word "begotten"
Good News Translation wrote:
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior. Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son.
The Nicene Creed has the word "begotten" in it
http://www.confessingumc.org/our-story/ ... les-creed/
Nicene Creed wrote:
We believe in one God,
The Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
True God from True God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father;
through Him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
He came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father,
who with the Father and the Son
is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen
The Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
True God from True God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father;
through Him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
He came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the scriptures;
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father,
who with the Father and the Son
is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen
But now he is "eternally begotten?" What in blazes is that supposed to mean?
The Dictionary wrote:
be·get verb
1.(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"
synonyms: father, sire, have, bring into the world, give life to, bring into being, spawn
"he begat a son"
2. give rise to; bring about.
"success begets further success"
synonyms: cause, give rise to, lead to, result in, bring about, create, produce, generate, engender, spawn, occasion, bring on, precipitate, prompt, provoke, kindle, trigger, spark off, touch off, stir up, whip up, induce, inspire, promote;
"violence begets violence"
1.(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"
synonyms: father, sire, have, bring into the world, give life to, bring into being, spawn
"he begat a son"
2. give rise to; bring about.
"success begets further success"
synonyms: cause, give rise to, lead to, result in, bring about, create, produce, generate, engender, spawn, occasion, bring on, precipitate, prompt, provoke, kindle, trigger, spark off, touch off, stir up, whip up, induce, inspire, promote;
"violence begets violence"
Do Christians believe that Jesus did come into existence by a process of reproduction?
And, that Jesus was the only son that Yahweh ever begot? Then how do the Christians explain away:
Genesis 6 wrote:
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Those are the "sons of God" cumming in unto the daughters of men, and begetting giants. Jesus had to have had some brothers. Yahweh had to have begotten these sons, too. Not just Jesus.
Christian theology apparently falls apart completely.
It all sounds confusing at first, until you realize it's a fairy tale.
31 Mar 2014, 12:21 am
I find it interesting that Jesus is called the "Son of Man" 43 times in the bible; Hebrew: ben adam, which refers to mortal men. Until after the transfiguration, death and resurrection, Jesus, like Neo from The Matrix was "still only human." (Sorry, I often resort to movie quotes. If you recall in that movie, however, the Oracle tells Neo that he is not the One and that he's "waiting for his next life." And he only becomes the One after being killed and resurrected.) Being the 'son of god' conferred nothing special on Jesus that a prophet could not do. Heck, Simon Magus could levitate well above the water Jesus walked on.
To me. the idea that he is the "only begotten son" and the "(only) son of god" would mean that Jesus is the only/first person to ever achieve enlightenment/union with the god-head. This is a dis-empowering idea which suggests that only through Jesus (the body and blood) can we taste the same state of grace. Now if Jesus was a magic mushroom, per a John Allegro type of idea, then that might have made sense back in the day. The bible, after all, was only meant to be read literally by those who failed to grasp the higher truths and encoded messages. Jesus himself said:
Quote:
“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
The Jews have 4 levels of reading the Torah: the literal reading, a hint that there's more being said, the use of intuition to discover what more is being said, and a transcendental experience produced from meditation on the words. (click for better description) It is said that only someone who is 40 years old can study the Kabbalah. When you understand what that means, then you're on the path the understanding much more in the bible; "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance."
Eastern mysticism is designed for people to become God/Buddha while Western mysticism is designed for people to simply emulate God. This is why when looking at something like Gothic cathedrals we find that they are oriented with the active side on the right and the passive side on the left, mirroring our own body when facing them, as we are only expected to emulate but not actually become the temple/god. Eastern temples and statues are oriented in the obverse, since we would then turn around and stand in gods place facing the opposite direction where the passive lunar side would then be correctly oriented on our left and the active solar side on our right. In that world everyone is a "son of god" because they are all emanations of the god-head. I bow to you because the God within me recognizes the God within you.
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31 Mar 2014, 3:27 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Basso53 wrote:
It's only Roman Catholics who believe that Joseph was celibate throughout his life. The Eastern Orthodox believe that the four other brothers of Jesus named in the synoptic gospels (James, Joses, Simeon, and Judas) were his sons from a prior marriage. Most Protestants believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but had normal marital relations with Joseph afterwards, and that they were Jesus' natural brothers. The plain text of the gospels support the Protestant view. Luke states that Jesus was her "first born son" (the clear implication being that there were others), and Matthew states that Mary and Joseph did not have marital relations until after Jesus was born.
That's absolutely correct. I can't speak for the Eastern Orthodox tradition, but Protestantism sought to emphasize the fact that while Christ was sinless, his mother, despite having something extraordinary happen to her, was just a mere mortal - and thus a sinner - like the rest of us. And the original Protestant reformers weren't so tied up with notions of chastity equating holiness as their Catholic counterparts were.
The doctrine of Mary's "perpetual virginity" seems to have been first postulated by Iranaeus in the mid-second century CE, and was hammered by blunt force into dogma by Jerome's polemics in the late fourth century. Luther is said to have also supported that doctrine. It appears that Calvin was the first of the Reformers to make a clear break.
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Kraichgauer
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31 Mar 2014, 5:13 pm
Basso53 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Basso53 wrote:
It's only Roman Catholics who believe that Joseph was celibate throughout his life. The Eastern Orthodox believe that the four other brothers of Jesus named in the synoptic gospels (James, Joses, Simeon, and Judas) were his sons from a prior marriage. Most Protestants believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but had normal marital relations with Joseph afterwards, and that they were Jesus' natural brothers. The plain text of the gospels support the Protestant view. Luke states that Jesus was her "first born son" (the clear implication being that there were others), and Matthew states that Mary and Joseph did not have marital relations until after Jesus was born.
That's absolutely correct. I can't speak for the Eastern Orthodox tradition, but Protestantism sought to emphasize the fact that while Christ was sinless, his mother, despite having something extraordinary happen to her, was just a mere mortal - and thus a sinner - like the rest of us. And the original Protestant reformers weren't so tied up with notions of chastity equating holiness as their Catholic counterparts were.
The doctrine of Mary's "perpetual virginity" seems to have been first postulated by Iranaeus in the mid-second century CE, and was hammered by blunt force into dogma by Jerome's polemics in the late fourth century. Luther is said to have also supported that doctrine. It appears that Calvin was the first of the Reformers to make a clear break.
Actually, Luther came to break free from Maryology in good time. You have to remember, unlike Calvin, who represented the second generation of Protestant Reformers, Luther didn't have the luxury of a framework of Protestant theology to work with, but had to construct it from the ground up.
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31 Mar 2014, 8:35 pm
Basso53 wrote:
The doctrine of Mary's "perpetual virginity" seems to have been first postulated by Iranaeus in the mid-second century CE, and was hammered by blunt force into dogma by Jerome's polemics in the late fourth century. Luther is said to have also supported that doctrine. It appears that Calvin was the first of the Reformers to make a clear break.
The Protevangelium of James talks about Mary being a virgin after the birth of Christ. Most scholars date the protevangelium about 35 years before Iranaeous's famous Against Heresy writings. So it's probably a belief that slowly had been assembled through the years. The protevangelium is a great story. Here's the quote:
Quote:
19 And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.
20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire.
20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire.
So Salmone (daughter of Herodias, queen of Chalcis and Armenia Minor) finger-banged Mary to check her out. Then Mary's private parts melts Salome's hands off as if it was burnt. That's one powerful you know what!! !! !
