Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

God and Science are not mutually exlcusive......

Page 2 of 5 [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

adifferentname
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,885

08 Sep 2014, 4:08 pm

trollcatman wrote:
This is what Penn Jillette said in their Penn & Teller BS series, in the Bible episode: "" If you're religious and you believe the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie, no one can bust you. But if faith isn't enough, if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so screwed."
Debunking creationist stuff doesn't matter if the person has already decided to take it all on faith.
That Penn & Teller BS series is so great btw. Most episodes are on youtube I think, at least the Bible one is. Can't post it here because of the language. They use profanity because they can't call people frauds, but it's legal to call them a**holes.


I disagree with the first part. As soon as creationists start making pseudo-scientific arguments to justify their beliefs, they become very "touchable". Besides, the purpose of countering the claims of theists is rarely to persuade or convert the claimant.

+1 for BS, though. I consider it their finest work despite being a huge fan of their stage act.



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

08 Sep 2014, 4:17 pm

trollcatman wrote:
This is what Penn Jillette said in their Penn & Teller BS series, in the Bible episode: "" If you're religious and you believe the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie, no one can bust you. But if faith isn't enough, if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so screwed."
Debunking creationist stuff doesn't matter if the person has already decided to take it all on faith.
That Penn & Teller BS series is so great btw. Most episodes are on youtube I think, at least the Bible one is. Can't post it here because of the language. They use profanity because they can't call people frauds, but it's legal to call them a**holes.


That's it in a nutshell. People can believe in anything in their "holy book" be it the bible, Koran, Upanishads, whatever, but if the believer steps into the realms of reality and facts, they are in for a shock; the evidence doesn't agree with their holy book and something has to give. They either have to accept that their holy book has some serious errors/misconceptions in it or go the route of self delusion and either turn their back on science, facts and evidence or invent ever more crackpot beliefs to try to reconcile the disparity such as "intelligent design" or that wacky creationism museum in America. :lol:


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


adifferentname
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,885

08 Sep 2014, 4:21 pm

TallyMan wrote:
that wacky creationism museum in America. :lol:


Anyone who opened a museum called "The Wacky Creationism Museum" would get my full support, no matter how crazy the exhibits were.



trollcatman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,919

08 Sep 2014, 5:09 pm

adifferentname wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
This is what Penn Jillette said in their Penn & Teller BS series, in the Bible episode: "" If you're religious and you believe the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie, no one can bust you. But if faith isn't enough, if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so screwed."
Debunking creationist stuff doesn't matter if the person has already decided to take it all on faith.
That Penn & Teller BS series is so great btw. Most episodes are on youtube I think, at least the Bible one is. Can't post it here because of the language. They use profanity because they can't call people frauds, but it's legal to call them a**holes.


I disagree with the first part. As soon as creationists start making pseudo-scientific arguments to justify their beliefs, they become very "touchable". Besides, the purpose of countering the claims of theists is rarely to persuade or convert the claimant.

+1 for BS, though. I consider it their finest work despite being a huge fan of their stage act.


Of course they will throw out some pseudo-scienctific nonsense to justify their beliefs, but ultimately their beliefs are based on faith and not fact. If someone were to say they believed stuff just on faith, that's the end of any discussion.
And BS was great, they shouldn't have cancelled the show. There is so much BS still out there. I never get tired of hearing "..and then there's THIS a**hole..."



0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

08 Sep 2014, 5:37 pm

The best BS was the one on Immigration. I disagree it should not have got cancelled. It was a limited format, and everything should have its day.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Sep 2014, 7:24 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Cool, so God is happy about the scientific discovery of evolution and the ongoing discoveries science is making about our evolution and that of the other great apes from our common ancestor.


I have absolutely no problem with that.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Sep 2014, 7:27 pm

TallyMan wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
This is what Penn Jillette said in their Penn & Teller BS series, in the Bible episode: "" If you're religious and you believe the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie, no one can bust you. But if faith isn't enough, if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so screwed."
Debunking creationist stuff doesn't matter if the person has already decided to take it all on faith.
That Penn & Teller BS series is so great btw. Most episodes are on youtube I think, at least the Bible one is. Can't post it here because of the language. They use profanity because they can't call people frauds, but it's legal to call them a**holes.


That's it in a nutshell. People can believe in anything in their "holy book" be it the bible, Koran, Upanishads, whatever, but if the believer steps into the realms of reality and facts, they are in for a shock; the evidence doesn't agree with their holy book and something has to give. They either have to accept that their holy book has some serious errors/misconceptions in it or go the route of self delusion and either turn their back on science, facts and evidence or invent ever more crackpot beliefs to try to reconcile the disparity such as "intelligent design" or that wacky creationism museum in America. :lol:


For theological books, you forgot to mention the Necronomicon. THE GREAT OLD ONES SHALL NOT BE DENIED!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

08 Sep 2014, 8:36 pm

God and Science are not mutually exclusive provided everyone follows the evidence wherever it leads. Once you refuse to do this due to an ideological bias then the two become separate.

The godly have been refusing scientific for centuries. Science on the other hand does not refuse god. Rather where something cannot be explained that is where it remains, until it can be explained, God is not postulated because there is no evidence for it. However if the merest of evidence for the existence of god did become available no scientist worthy of the name would ignore it.


_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx


Narrator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,060
Location: Melbourne, Australia

09 Sep 2014, 5:32 am

TallyMan wrote:
AspE wrote:
It's always possible a creationist will learn to think critically.


Critical thinking will always be overruled by religious beliefs. If a creationist allowed himself to think critically he'd discover that evolution is true and that would be enough to upturn his whole world view. So they prefer to remain in ignorance of science because the reality is too painful for them to handle.

Time for me to disagree. It was my critical thinking that eventually led me away from the beliefs that I once had so much invested in. It really relies on two things: the ability to think critically and not get lost, and the ability to be honest in confronting your own strong beliefs. Not everyone can do both these things.

But where is the conflict between evolution and creation? If you know your theology well, there is no conflict at all. But the majority of theists are not taught anything even approaching good theology on this issue, let alone on other issues. Anyone who believes in the 7 days of creation has no real clue what they are reading. In some respects, it's perhaps the only part of the bible that is consistent with the spirit in which the tales were written.


_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

09 Sep 2014, 5:48 am

^ Your rationality is a rare and refreshing exception. We tend to get the occasional YEC here and they preach at us and their arguments are, to put it bluntly, annihilated as with the latest guy here. Yet they cling to their beliefs and have a tendency not to pick up and debate but just to post and run; then to return a little later and post another thread showing they've learned nothing from their previous threads.


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

09 Sep 2014, 6:23 am

TallyMan wrote:
^ Your rationality is a rare and refreshing exception. We tend to get the occasional YEC here and they preach at us and their arguments are, to put it bluntly, annihilated as with the latest guy here. Yet they cling to their beliefs and have a tendency not to pick up and debate but just to post and run; then to return a little later and post another thread showing they've learned nothing from their previous threads.


Bart Ehrman was also able to accept and follow the evidence. It is mainly for this reason that I hold his BIblical opinions in high regard.


_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx


Narrator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,060
Location: Melbourne, Australia

09 Sep 2014, 7:09 am

TallyMan wrote:
^ Your rationality is a rare and refreshing exception. We tend to get the occasional YEC here and they preach at us and their arguments are, to put it bluntly, annihilated as with the latest guy here. Yet they cling to their beliefs and have a tendency not to pick up and debate but just to post and run; then to return a little later and post another thread showing they've learned nothing from their previous threads.

Hopefully with age they will grow beyond that.

Journey vs destination? :P


_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


YourMum
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 150

13 Sep 2014, 10:40 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Christian doctrine make the following assumptions about the creator:

1. The creator is still there
2. The creator cares what happens or even thinks at all
3. The creator wants to be worshiped
4. The creator cares about ritual
5. The creator is moral absolutist
6. The creator contradicts itself about being a moral absolutist and is hypocritical
7. The creator likes arbitrary rules the make no sense and have nothing to do with morality
8. The creator suddenly decided 4000 year ago, to create an arbitrary doctrine, in an arbitrary place, which is suspiciously like an offshoot Canaanite culture, and at first had five different versions doctrine, even multiple gods and even a wife of Yahweh, and only became monotheistic after Babylonian invasion.
9. The creator we will meet in the afterlife or there even is an afterlife.
10. The creator is happy to let pain and suffering happen in order to prove a point, when as a creator not just of the universe but of us could easily determine we lead good and moral lives, and has no reason to play this game, or we should even respect them for it.


1. Naturally.
2. Naturally.
3. Depends what you mean by 'wants'.
4. 'Cares' is probably the wrong word.
5. Ethical, perhaps.
6. Pardon?
7. By 'arbitrary rules which make no sense' do you mean 'rules which I don't understand'? What do you mean by 'morality' and why should any 'rule' meet the standards of this definition?
8. Yes. Christians don't care so much about that because Christianity starts off much later on in the story, but it's an accepted element of Jewish history. What's your point?
9. I'm not sure about the word 'meet', but fair enough.
10. You really want creation to match your ideals, don't you.



Cash__
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Nov 2010
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,390
Location: Missouri

14 Sep 2014, 9:27 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
This is what Penn Jillette said in their Penn & Teller BS series, in the Bible episode: "" If you're religious and you believe the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie, no one can bust you. But if faith isn't enough, if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so screwed."
Debunking creationist stuff doesn't matter if the person has already decided to take it all on faith.
That Penn & Teller BS series is so great btw. Most episodes are on youtube I think, at least the Bible one is. Can't post it here because of the language. They use profanity because they can't call people frauds, but it's legal to call them a**holes.


That's it in a nutshell. People can believe in anything in their "holy book" be it the bible, Koran, Upanishads, whatever, but if the believer steps into the realms of reality and facts, they are in for a shock; the evidence doesn't agree with their holy book and something has to give. They either have to accept that their holy book has some serious errors/misconceptions in it or go the route of self delusion and either turn their back on science, facts and evidence or invent ever more crackpot beliefs to try to reconcile the disparity such as "intelligent design" or that wacky creationism museum in America. :lol:


For theological books, you forgot to mention the Necronomicon. THE GREAT OLD ONES SHALL NOT BE DENIED!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


Just don't forget to say "Clatto Verata Nicto" before picking up the necronomicon or you'll release the Army of Darkness.



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,718
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

14 Sep 2014, 10:06 am

Lets try covering the topic this way perhapse:

Religion should never invade peer-reviewed journals as objective reality when nothing's been empirically tested. Science is a method, religion is a dogma - so on the real 'science' end of it they're mutually exclusive even if science and establishment by chance start discover something like....oh....consciousness is the core nature of the Totality - that's a discovery of a sort that might sound religious but it would still need to be probed in a scientific manner and need the same old review to validate and those reviewing would have to keep out all religious wording. The tabloids and newswires of course would go wild with religious speculation and generating hype and advertising dollars is what they do best but that's what they do on everything. The Yahoo article titles I'm sure would hit a whole new level of disturbingly ignorant.

On the other hand the notion that someone can't be a valid scientist and theist and have their theism in a line that isn't mutually exclusive with what we know about the world and are part of a ontic/spiritual tradition that they themselves didn't just make up to suite their whims - that's very much on the table and available. However yes it can inspire their science, it just can't 'be' their science. If it motivates someone to do great science then it served its purpose. If it guided a scientist to new ground-breaking hypotheses to test then even better. Science done right though, as a method, isn't mutually exclusive to things necessarily but can't be interrupted or subverted by things that aren't on its track.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

14 Sep 2014, 10:17 am

Cash__ wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
This is what Penn Jillette said in their Penn & Teller BS series, in the Bible episode: "" If you're religious and you believe the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie, no one can bust you. But if faith isn't enough, if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so screwed."
Debunking creationist stuff doesn't matter if the person has already decided to take it all on faith.
That Penn & Teller BS series is so great btw. Most episodes are on youtube I think, at least the Bible one is. Can't post it here because of the language. They use profanity because they can't call people frauds, but it's legal to call them a**holes.


That's it in a nutshell. People can believe in anything in their "holy book" be it the bible, Koran, Upanishads, whatever, but if the believer steps into the realms of reality and facts, they are in for a shock; the evidence doesn't agree with their holy book and something has to give. They either have to accept that their holy book has some serious errors/misconceptions in it or go the route of self delusion and either turn their back on science, facts and evidence or invent ever more crackpot beliefs to try to reconcile the disparity such as "intelligent design" or that wacky creationism museum in America. :lol:


For theological books, you forgot to mention the Necronomicon. THE GREAT OLD ONES SHALL NOT BE DENIED!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !


Just don't forget to say "Clatto Verata Nicto" before picking up the necronomicon or you'll release the Army of Darkness.


That, and it stops the robot Gort from continuing his rampage in The Day The Earth Stood Still.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer