Battered women jailed for "letting" abuse happen

Page 2 of 3 [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

beneficii
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,245

04 Oct 2014, 8:20 am

Dox47 wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
The whole concept of the plea bargain is flawed, from alternative punishment, incentive to falsely implicating other people, incentive to lie your way out of trouble.


Aside from that, few things offend me like a prosecutor first offering someone a plea bargain with a fairly low custodial sentence attached, then grandstanding in court about this dangerous offender that must be locked up for the maximum amount of time for public safety after they reject the deal, it's pure vindictiveness, not justice.


I totally agree with this.


_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

04 Oct 2014, 3:13 pm

beneficii wrote:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexcampbell/how-the-law-turns-battered-women-into-criminals#1rfsp8g

Quote:
Domestic violence advocates say these cases signal a deep misunderstanding of what it means for women to be trapped in abusive relationships. Many such women fear alerting authorities, because doing so can provoke their partners to extreme violence. Moreover, authorities often fail to protect battered women and their children. Advocates also say that imprisoning these women serves little purpose and deprives any surviving children of their mother.

The laws against failing to prevent child abuse are written to cover both fathers and mothers. And, in fact, women perpetrate 34% of serious or fatal cases of physical abuse of children, according to the latest congressionally mandated national study of child abuse. But interviews and BuzzFeed News? analysis of cases show that fathers rarely face prosecution for failing to stop their partners from harming their children. Overwhelmingly, women bear the weight of these laws.


That is f***ing ridiculous, I mean ok if a woman with children is in an abusive relationship and say the father tries abusing the kids, well she'll just get her ass kicked too if she intervenes, same with when the fathers beating on the mom the child might be afraid to defend the mother because they don't want to get beat on. It really is a terrible situation and sadly the 'law' does little to really help these situations it seems and fail to really investigate the full picture of what is going on. At the same time though much of the time males are not taken seriously if in an abusive situation with a female like there is a myth females can't abuse males and that is false, I could see the same if say the dad was not the abusive one and the wife was abusive if she was hurting the kids then he might be afraid for his life to intervene, much like his kids would be afraid to intervene for him. Then of course if someone 'murders' their abuser they might get just a serious of sentence as someone who murders someone in cold blood....it really does not make sense to me. In my world people should get kudos for giving the abuser some of their own medicine or killing them.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Lukecash12
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,033

04 Oct 2014, 5:59 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
A percentage of serial killers have been abused. It doesn't change the intent though.

Abuse always need to be taken into consideration as do other facts.


Exactly. Statistics can be pretty hollow when you don't examine the situation well enough.


_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib


The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

04 Oct 2014, 6:00 pm

Dox47 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
She granted new trial, and was released on bail on November 27, 2013. [The prosecutor]Corey announced that she intended to re-prosecute Alexander, this time aiming for three consecutive 20 year sentences, amounting to a mandatory 60 year sentence if Alexander is found guilty in a second trial


That's called 'the tax', the practice of prosecutors seeking the maximum sentences they can, regardless of context or circumstance, against defendants who insist on going to court and not taking plea deals, with the idea of intimidating others into taking pleas, whether guilty or not. It's a grave miscarriage of justice, and a major reason for my own personal disdain for the entire profession of prosecutors.

As an aside, it bugs me that the 'slimy defense attorney' is still a favorite stock villain in entertainment and that people still seem to think that criminals getting off on technicalities is a major problem, when calculating and ruthless prosecutors flagrantly violating the law and getting away with it are a much more common and serious problem. A prosecutor can lie, withhold exculpatory evidence, suborn perjury, and otherwise make a mockery of the legal system, be caught on tape doing so, and you still can't so much as civilly sue them because they have absolute immunity, beyond even what the police have, for anything they do in the course of their work. Add in the fact that they're often elected, and that what they run on is conviction ratings (not 'justice' ratings), and you have a recipe for abuse of power on an unprecedented scale, which is exactly what is happening today.

This is insanity. Surely, at the very least, there needs to be different people setting the charges and trying to get them? And defence and prosecution lawyers need to be held to equivalent standards (can defence lawyers legally withhold evidence?).

How does the American system stand up with its peers? Obviously it is better than China, but how many developed countries have these messed up rules? Jordan is capable of throwing out evidence obtained under torture that would convict a probable terrorist... OK, America could probably do that too, but is it common for legal systems to be quite that screwed, or is America out in front amongst developed, democratic countries?



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2014, 6:29 pm

I think jailing people in a situation of their being abused which results in their failing to protect minors from same is ridiculous. How can you be both a victim of a crime and the perpetrator of that same crime? Illogical.
And also unproductive. Are the jailed supposed to somehow come back with superpowers that will enable them to intervene? I guess it's supposed to be punitive, but this seems misplaced. I think the authorities are trying to compensate for their inability to deal with the abuser.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

04 Oct 2014, 6:38 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
This is insanity. Surely, at the very least, there needs to be different people setting the charges and trying to get them? And defence and prosecution lawyers need to be held to equivalent standards (can defence lawyers legally withhold evidence?).


Legally prosecutors aren't allowed to withhold evidence, but it's commonplace and virtually never punished, and defendants convicted in such tainted trials have huge obstacles to overcome to get new trials, as said prosecutors fight tooth and nail against it, and we have some bone-headed legalistic rules regarding when a new trial can be granted.
The_Walrus wrote:
How does the American system stand up with its peers? Obviously it is better than China, but how many developed countries have these messed up rules? Jordan is capable of throwing out evidence obtained under torture that would convict a probable terrorist... OK, America could probably do that too, but is it common for legal systems to be quite that screwed, or is America out in front amongst developed, democratic countries?


It's a bit more complicated, we have a lot of the right rules on the books, the problem is that they're seldom enforced, even more rarely publicly, and when they are, almost never to any lasting consequence. It's very similar to what's been happening with the fourth amendment, where the courts have been chipping away at the exclusionary rule barring illegally obtained evidence from being used at trial, giving the police various "good faith" exceptions that all but guarantee more illegal searches, as the police are not penalized for them so long as they claim they thought what they did was legal, even in the most outrageous situations.

What a lot of people don't understand is the lopsided nature of criminal proceedings, where the prosecution already has the entire resources of the state to call upon, while the defendant, if lucky enough to be able to afford council, can only muster the best defense he can afford, and god help him if he has to rely on a public defender. Further, with the rise of mandatory minimum sentences, prosecutors were given a ton of control over what potential sentence a defendant could be looking at, based on what enhancements they do or do not file, giving them vast leverage when plea bargaining. Add in the motivation structure, prosecutors are rewarded for convictions, not for finding the truth, and their aforementioned absolute immunity, and you can see how it got so out of control.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Lukecash12
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,033

04 Oct 2014, 6:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
This is insanity. Surely, at the very least, there needs to be different people setting the charges and trying to get them? And defence and prosecution lawyers need to be held to equivalent standards (can defence lawyers legally withhold evidence?).


Legally prosecutors aren't allowed to withhold evidence, but it's commonplace and virtually never punished, and defendants convicted in such tainted trials have huge obstacles to overcome to get new trials, as said prosecutors fight tooth and nail against it, and we have some bone-headed legalistic rules regarding when a new trial can be granted.
The_Walrus wrote:
How does the American system stand up with its peers? Obviously it is better than China, but how many developed countries have these messed up rules? Jordan is capable of throwing out evidence obtained under torture that would convict a probable terrorist... OK, America could probably do that too, but is it common for legal systems to be quite that screwed, or is America out in front amongst developed, democratic countries?


It's a bit more complicated, we have a lot of the right rules on the books, the problem is that they're seldom enforced, even more rarely publicly, and when they are, almost never to any lasting consequence. It's very similar to what's been happening with the fourth amendment, where the courts have been chipping away at the exclusionary rule barring illegally obtained evidence from being used at trial, giving the police various "good faith" exceptions that all but guarantee more illegal searches, as the police are not penalized for them so long as they claim they thought what they did was legal, even in the most outrageous situations.

What a lot of people don't understand is the lopsided nature of criminal proceedings, where the prosecution already has the entire resources of the state to call upon, while the defendant, if lucky enough to be able to afford council, can only muster the best defense he can afford, and god help him if he has to rely on a public defender. Further, with the rise of mandatory minimum sentences, prosecutors were given a ton of control over what potential sentence a defendant could be looking at, based on what enhancements they do or do not file, giving them vast leverage when plea bargaining. Add in the motivation structure, prosecutors are rewarded for convictions, not for finding the truth, and their aforementioned absolute immunity, and you can see how it got so out of control.


Yes, it is absolutely ridiculous to give an incentive for convicting someone. I just don't understand how it isn't exceedingly obvious to everyone how backwards that is.


_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

04 Oct 2014, 6:55 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
Yes, it is absolutely ridiculous to give an incentive for convicting someone. I just don't understand how it isn't exceedingly obvious to everyone how backwards that is.


People really still want to believe in the system, and will ignore all sorts of evidence to the contrary, even when it's shoved in their faces. That, and the general public seems ignorant of public choice theory and its implications in politics and governance.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Lukecash12
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2012
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,033

04 Oct 2014, 7:33 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Yes, it is absolutely ridiculous to give an incentive for convicting someone. I just don't understand how it isn't exceedingly obvious to everyone how backwards that is.


People really still want to believe in the system, and will ignore all sorts of evidence to the contrary, even when it's shoved in their faces. That, and the general public seems ignorant of public choice theory and its implications in politics and governance.


Sometimes I am revolted at but really do sympathize with Plato's concept of a philosopher king.


_________________
There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

04 Oct 2014, 8:05 pm

^
Sounds like how I feel about competency tests for voting; I know it's a bad idea, but can see the appeal.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

04 Oct 2014, 9:35 pm

I looked up the story because it seemed odd and found this

Quote:
Mom charged with doing nothing about son's beating

By JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News

The mother of a 3-year-old boy who police say was beaten and kicked to death by the woman's teenage boyfriend has been arrested and accused of leaving her son with the man after she witnessed most of the violence.

Arrest warrant affidavits say Arlena Lindley, 21, of Dallas was in the apartment when her son, Titches Lindley, was choked, stomped and tossed against a wall by her boyfriend. Then Ms. Lindley went shopping.

Ms. Lindley was booked into the Lew Sterrett Justice Center on Wednesday afternoon on a charge of injury to a child with the intent of serious bodily injury by omission, a first-degree felony punishable by up to life in prison. Her bail is set at $100,000.

Ms. Lindley's boyfriend, Alonzo Turner, 19, was being held without bail on charges of capital murder in connection with the Oct. 13 death of Titches.

He also is charged with family violence assault because he's accused of injuring Ms. Lindley.

Ms. Lindley and Mr. Turner have declined interview requests.

Police said that about 10 a.m. Oct. 13, Ms. Lindley was at the apartment in the 4800 block of Sunnyvale Street in east Oak Cliff when Mr. Turner flew into a tirade because Titches wouldn't eat his oatmeal and had soiled his pants.

According to the affidavits, Mr. Turner ordered the boy into the bedroom, told him to bend over and beat him with a belt. He threw the boy against the wall.

Titches then spit oatmeal on the floor, and after he refused to lick it up, police said, Mr. Turner forced the boy's face into the mess. He then grabbed the boy's throat and stepped on his chest, then forced the boy's head into the toilet, police said.

"She didn't step in to protect the child," said Lt. Ches Williams, head of the crimes against children unit. "She was there enough of the time to realize that the child was being hurt."

Instead, the affidavits said, the boy's mother left with a friend to go to the store. Mr. Turner would not let them take Titches along, police said.

When her friend asked Ms. Lindley if they should call anyone, she reportedly said no, one affidavit said.

Soon after, an apartment manager walking by heard Mr. Turner yelling, "Get up! Get up!" at the boy. Through the window, she could see the man kicking the boy. She knocked on the door and confronted him. "I had to whoop him for pooping in his pants," Mr. Turner told her, according to police.

She went back to the office, and 911 was called. An officer arrived but found the apartment abandoned.

Police later learned Mr. Turner had taken Titches "to the store to get Pepto-Bismol because [Titches] was complaining of a sore stomach," according to one affidavit.

Meanwhile, after doing some shopping, Ms. Lindley accompanied her friend to her apartment, where they discussed Mr. Turner's behavior. Ms. Lindley, according to the friend, "was smiling when she told about the ... beating," an affidavit states.

At 1:40 p.m., the women returned to the apartment and found Titches, who was having "a hard time standing up and was tired." Mr. Turner told the boy, "Don't you fall down!" and laughed. The boy went to rest in the bedroom.

Ms. Lindley checked on her son and found his breathing labored but did nothing, police said. Minutes later, she found him not breathing, police said.

Mr. Turner dialed 911. Titches died at Children's Medical Center Dallas. Police said Titches had broken ribs, extensive internal bleeding and head trauma. The Dallas County medical examiner's office ruled he had died from multiple blunt force injuries.

When investigators asked Ms. Lindley why she didn't take her son away from Mr. Turner, she answered, "I don't know."


If that's what actually happened then Ms. Lindley was indeed criminally negligent imo, whether or not she deserves 45 years is another question. At least gives you an idea of what the prosecution was thinking.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2014, 9:40 pm

I still go with what I said earlier. This sounds like a man to be afraid of and I'm sure she was. I think she should be in psychological counselling.



Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

04 Oct 2014, 9:56 pm

I remember when my mother was doing law and their prototypical case of battered wife syndrome.

If you're being assaulted and abused, shoot the man in his sleep. You'll win, and he deserves it.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

04 Oct 2014, 10:02 pm

What sticks out to me is the alleged calloused attitude she had towards the beating and her refusal to call 911, the killer was actually the one who ultimately ended up calling it. It is a tragedy and Ms. Lindley may of been a victim of abuse as as well but she failed in her duty to protect her child. She left her child to die at the hands of this guy and did nothing to stop it even when she left the house and he was no danger to her.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2014, 10:10 pm

Jacoby wrote:
What sticks out to me is the alleged calloused attitude she had towards the beating and her refusal to call 911, the killer was actually the one who ultimately ended up calling it. It is a tragedy and Ms. Lindley may of been a victim of abuse as as well but she failed in her duty to protect her child. She left her child to die at the hands of this guy and did nothing to stop it even when she left the house and he was no danger to her.


If you are going by the article you linked alone, I have to say that I found the style biased against the woman. It was mentioned that she has pressed charges against him for assaulting her, but there was no description of that. I hate to think of what he did to her considering what he is capable of.
I don't know that it can be assumed that her attitude is callous. I would need to know more about what she underwent before I could judge her.



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

04 Oct 2014, 10:31 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Yes, it is absolutely ridiculous to give an incentive for convicting someone. I just don't understand how it isn't exceedingly obvious to everyone how backwards that is.


People really still want to believe in the system, and will ignore all sorts of evidence to the contrary, even when it's shoved in their faces. That, and the general public seems ignorant of public choice theory and its implications in politics and governance.


Sometimes I am revolted at but really do sympathize with Plato's concept of a philosopher king.


This is a numbers society so it's more about quantitative values than qualitative since quantitative is easier to assign numbers to. Prosecutors are judged by numbers, right or wrong. It's a sh***y and unjust system in this case but I don't see change coming in the foreseeable future.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson