What do you think about forced vaccination?

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By that logic, peanuts must be banned from every supermarket and every restaurant and school. I had a severe allergic reaction because I ate some chicken that had a strange spice on it - curry? - so should we claim that's an evil spice and ban it?

Yes, of course mandatory vaccines are a human rights violation. Nobody should be forced to have their skin pierced with a needle and injected with who-knows-what. Why is this even being debated? It should be common sense. The government should have no right to tell its citizens what they can and can't do with their own body.

Congratulations. You have the ignoble honor of being a statistical certainty.

You suffered, but thousands of illnesses were prevented by the same batch of vaccines.



Influenza is a tricky one because of its rapid mutation rate and regional variations. We have to guess at the mix when we make vaccines and sometimes we're wrong.

We know that it can spiral way out of hand because the 1918 flu killed an estimated 50 million people. This is not up for debate. Influenza has the potential to kill 20% to 40% of the total worldwide population. Because it already happened once.

However, we have gotten a lot better at slowing the spread of viruses through basic hygiene protocols so it is unlikely that a future strain of influenza will have that kind of impact in first world nations.

It could still be really bad in a lot of regions, and we travel a lot faster and a lot further now, so it will spread far more rapidly.

The good news is that viruses don't have plans or strategies or memories. They just have a biological imperative to make more copies of themselves.

So just because a strain is super deadly in birds or pigs doesn't mean that it will become easily transmitted to and between humans, and a mutation that makes it easily transmit two and between humans may also make it less deadly.

In the USA, avian influenza is spreading a lot this year. Among birds - chickens, turkey, etc. It's guaranteed to be bad for poultry farms but not guaranteed to be an issue for anyone who doesn't work on a poultry farm.

The other problem with influenza is that we are still making the vaccine by infecting chicken eggs. This causes a problem for people who are allergic to eggs, and the cost of developing a new method and getting it approved by the various government health agencies isn't encouraging anyone to figure out a new method.

What about the health and we welfare for everyone else?

Maybe people who decline vaccines should just be legally shunned from public spaces, required to carry, use, and supply hand sanitizer, and required to wear an n95 mask and a scarlet V at all times?

I somehow don't think that's going to work.

Maybe just require the public schools (including charter schools that receive government funds) to decline enrollment to anyone without proof of vaccination. Or without a statement from a licensed MD to the effect that they cannot be vaccinated.

We could even provide gratis vaccination to people who say they can't afford it. Small price to pay.

Maybe larger communities could have a kook school for people who decline. This way we don't deny education but we assure herd immunity for people who can't be vaccinated.

I once read a book where people had their basic human rights infringed "for the greater good." It's called 1984.

Hallelujah!

You read a book? Good for you.

It was a work of fiction.

What blauSamstag said.

We may be doing it wrong.

The 1918 Flu killed young healthy people quickly.

Older people, those who had another Flu, did not get the 1918 bug.

Normal Flu does kill a lot of people, but producing short term immunity by vaccination may be setting up a situation where an epidemic is possible.

I recall someone created an unstoppable Flu in the lab. Fast acting, high mortality, and the ingredients can be found in nature. Evolution, someday, everything that can happen, will.

Surviving a milder Flu might be the best defense.

How do you think immunization works?

You receive a weak or dead version of the virus, in this case, several strains of a virus, and your immune system handily defeats it.

And then it knows those viruses and how to kill them. So when you get exposed to the full strength virus, there is no learning curve.

Why would this lead to a superbug? We are talking about a virus, not a bacteria. The virus does not learn or evolve based on immune response. It just replicates and mutates.

Every virus you ever got over was due to your immune response killing it.

Bacteria are completely different. It turns out that bacteria do communicate, sort of. They shoot out short strands of RNA that sometimes are picked up by their relatives.

Penecillin is a beta lactam ring. That is a hard thing to describe in science terms, but it is basically a chemical buzz saw that slices right through the outer shell of a bacterial cell, allowing your immune system to take it apart.

Over time, due to random mutation, some of the bacterial cells evolve an ability to shoot out a strand of RNA that contains a lactam kinase. Again, hard to explain in science terms, but this is basically like a knife that cuts through a lactam ring, protecting the bacterial cell from being damaged by the buzz saw.

Nearly all antibiotics are a variation on the same beta lactam ring. Enhancements are made to prevent digestion in the stomach for example. And lactam kinase inhibitors are grafted on - basically like a hand that can catch the knife.

When you don't finish your course of antibiotics, only the cells with the strongest defense against that antibiotic survive, and then they multiply, and more of the same abtibiotic won't help.

You don't build up immunity to bacteria. You kill it with overwhelming force of drugs, or by your body running a fever to cook it out and hopefully not kill you with it. People used to die of this all the time, and when penicillin hit the scene, the earth's bacteria had never seen anything like it, and had no defenses against it.

It evolved. It continues to evolve. MRSA is just run of the mill staph that has evolved multiple defenses to multiple strong drugs.

Bacteria is a foreign life form that takes up residence wherever it can.

Viruses infect by reprogramming your own cells to produce more viruses.

Our immune systems then have to seek out and kill those cells, and kill the viruses.

You actually need the "good" bacteria to be healthy so it's good that the human immune system doesn't indiscriminately battle all bacteria.

But barring certain scenarios, you carry antibodies for every virus you have encountered. They are pumping through your blood at all times. Once your body defeats one strain of virus, you are really unlikely to be infected by it again.

The flu mutates so fast that it is a moving target, but the mutations are random. And your body still knows how to kill every strain you were exposed to, and since the new strain shares some features with the old, you often have a halfway good defense for the new.

This is why, when the new vaccine is a miss, they often say to get it anyway, since partial imunity is better than none.

Neat thing - researchers have figured out how to tell which viruses you are immune to from a single drop of blood. Your complete history of immunity.

Wow, talk about catty.

Yes, 1984 is a work of fiction, and let's keep it that way.



You're so rude, you know that? How dare you talk to him like that?

Thanks, yes, it was rude with his hand, but on the other hand, I myself sometimes behaves in this way. Do not forget that we're autistic and we often talk to other people what we really feel despite of of feeling of other people
So i don't feel offended by this

But you realize it, and try not to. That's a good thing.