I have a question for those refusing to vaccinate their kids

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I can't help but feel sad for people I know who struggle with it...they are nice and everything...and no one is willing to offer much compassion just because they were not immunized and had mumps as kids. No one really cares. You grow up and you have to make the most of what you've got and no doubt about it, things are tougher for them.

I don't know where the notion came from that there are anti-vaxxers on this forum, let alone enough to poll.

What really upsets me and I do tend to take these issues more seriously than the average person, is the fact there are millions of people around the world very ill who were never immunized and they pay for it every day. It's such a lie that living in bacteria and viruses makes people healthy. The life expectancy is lower. Battling illness after illness takes it toll.

Now we are seeing the results of not inoculating, I worry it is only a matter of time before Mumps rears its ugly head.

No one really understands what that one illness, Mumps, can do, unless they know one of the Mumps afflicted. I know two and have one in my family that grew up with my mom. Although I haven't met her, that I can remember, she's my mom's cousin, I have heard plenty about her. She had Mumps as a kid and it left her mentally ret*d. All three of these people have the same story; No immunizations-Mumps-high fever-mental retardation and they all live in poverty, can't find work, need government assistance. Their ability to care for themselves has been diminished considerably all because of one really high fever that permanently damaged their brains.

So I cannot understand why people would risk it. Germs are everywhere and it is so easy to pick up an illness like Mumps.

Rand Paul is completely irresponsible and let me guess - he is against government spending yet he is encouraging people to not immunize their kids which will end up costing the government billions of dollars.

That's where there IS room for a philosophical debate.

Personally, I think the people that choose not to vaccinate their kids are, TBH, dumb. Whether for religious reasons or for fear of autism/ADHD/fill-in-'disorder'-here. Note that I'm not talking about the parents of kids who are allergic to some component of the vaccine, who have good reasons to strongly suspect said allergy, or are immunocompromised and can't take the vaccine.

IMO, if we want to talk about health being for God to give or take away, God gave us the brains to develop the vaccines. Refusing them and calling it submission to The Will Of God is, basically, repudiating a gift.

It's like the old joke about the man in the flood. Lived near the river. It rained and rained and rained. All the neighbors evacuated. "Come with us," they said. "Nope," the man said. "God will protect me." It rained and rained and rained. Water came up to the house. Some people came by in a boat. "Get in," they said. "We'll take you to safety." "Nope. God will protect me." It rained and rained and rained. Water covered the first floor of the house. The man moved to the second floor. State Troopers came to the window in a motorboat. "Get in, Sir. We'll take you to safety." "Nope. God will protect me." It rained and rained and rained. Water covered the second story. The man climbed onto the roof. A National Guard helicopter hovered overhead. "We'll throw you a rope! Climb up and we'll take you to safety!" "Nope. God will protect me." He drowned. Got to Heaven. Stood before the Throne of God. "My Lord, I had faith in You! You said You would save me! Why did You let me die??" "My child, I sent you two boats and a helicopter!! !"

You've already heard my opinion on the autism thing. I realize I'm extremely mild; however, I also realize that the detection and diagnosis of people like me are why the statistics have gone from 1:5000 to 1:2000 to 1:500 to 1:250 to 1:110 to 1:88 to 1:54 and will finally level off somewhere around 1:38.

HOWEVER. For all I think those people are fear-driven, seriously misled, lacking in common sense, and possibly so idiotically socially constructed that they would rather see their child dead than see their child struggling with awkwardness, I don't think they're neglectful. It's not something they overlooked or didn't bother to do. They made what they thought was the best decision possible with the information they had available.

That is the role, job, and duty of THE PARENT. I want that to REMAIN the role, job, and duty of the parent. NOT the role, job, and duty of THE STATE. I am the parent of our children. My husband is the parent of our children. Mr. Obama IS NOT the parent of my children, any more than I am the mother of Sasha and Malia Obama. Mr. Wolf IS NOT the parent of my children. Ms. Sebelius IS NOT the parent of my children. Mr. Gupta IS NOT the parent of my children. The morbidly obese young man whose name is always obscured in my head by "Dr. Brad," who happens to be our pediatrician, IS NOT the parent of my children. The members of the PA BOE ARE NOT the parents of my children. The members of the RBCSD Board of Education ARE NOT the parents of my children. The various principles of Riverside School ARE NOT the parents of my children.

Short of starvation, truly and obscenely abject filth, grievous physical abuse, and willful and explicit sexual molestation, I DO NOT WANT ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE TO HAVE MORE AUTHORITY THAN ME AND MY HUSBAND OVER HOW I CARE FOR MY CHILDREN.

They're welcome to advise me. I welcome their input. I've done the research, and I think they're right-- this time. But I do not want them to have the power to use the law, and the threat of taking my children, to twist my arm and force compliance WHETHER THEY ARE RIGHT OR NOT. Not because I'm a whacked-out conspiracy theorist (I may very well be, but that's beside the point right now). Because they are only human, same as me. They err sometimes, same as me. They're right this time; next time, they may be wrong.

I might say that I think that watching videos of people suffering with all those diseases should be a mandatory part of Health Class. Also watching videos of people struggling with complications thereof. Hey, come to my house next time my hubby catches a cold and help me nurse him 'round the clock for five days straight, hoping and praying that he doesn't develop either bronchitis or pneumonia (both of which he's prone to ever since the whooping cough).

But I DON'T support giving TPTB the authority to force us to comply, even with a good idea.

Hypothetically, let's say tomorrow HIV becomes airborne. An experimental vaccine currently in stage 2 trials is fast-tracked through efficacy tests after being proven to be safe.

Surely only extremists would dispute that a parent who neglected to have their child vaccinated would be in breach of their duty of care?

Equally, only an extremist would suggest that a parent who failed to have their children given an annual rhinovirus (cold) vaccine was being negligent. (Note that "extremist" views aren't necessarily wrong - extremist abolisionists were right, for example - I'm merely attempting to establish consensus)

So, where is the line? Polio? In areas where that is still endemic, I feel parents are generally not doing their job if they refuse vaccination, though obviously they are right to consider the threat of violence. What about men C? DPT? MMR?

Apparently 36,600 American children have their lives saved by vaccines every year. Sorry, but if you are unable to process simple facts that would save your child's life, are you really fit to be a parent?

If you just don't give enough of a crap to drag it to the clinic, by automobile or bus or horse or neighbor or foot if necessary?? You're an ass, and probably not fit to parent.

You're probably also going to neglect something else-- like logging off of CandyCrush long enough to feed your kid some dinner-- that's going to get you nailed sooner or later.

How about if you do, however mistakenly, honestly believe that your child is at more risk from the vaccine than from the disease??

There's a little bit of a difference there, isn't there??

If I had an autistic child, say perhaps on the Aspie end of the spectrum-- one who was clearly autistic and clearly struggling, but also clearly learning, clearly content enough, and clearly living, not merely remaining alive-- would I be unfit to parent because I rejected 40 to 60 hours a week of ABA or other intensive therapy, preferring instead to let my child figure it out by living life with a loving and supportive parent as a guide (and possibly the occasional input of other caring adults, such as other relatives, teachers, guidance counsellors, and the parents of friends)?? After all, the medical and educational communities currently believe intensive early intervention is best.

I have an ADHD child. At present, he has to work pretty hard for it, but he has an A/B average and is not causing a discipline problem at home or school. He gets ragged a fair bit and has been mildly bullied, but he also has friends who like him for who he is right now. Am I failing in my duty as a parent because I have chosen to forego Ritalin (or other drug) at this time and to give his evenings over to Cub Scouts, hanging with friends, homework, and playing with his siblings rather than hauling him down to Pittsburgh to see a therapist?? After all, those things might fix it or anyway mask it) faster. OTOH, they might also have side effects that are more damaging than "growing up an ADHD kid." Am I failing in my duty as a parent because I didn't take the opportunity to get him a 1:1 aide despite the fact that his teacher, his guidance counsellor, his parents, and everyone but the evaluator who happened to head an agency that places 1:1 aides on a strictly Medicaid basis though that giving him a 1:1 would be destructive overkill?? After all, the medical and educational communities categorically recommend a combination of medication, therapy, and parent retraining. They don't recommend the parent educating themselves and making modifications as necessary while allowing the child to "learn on their feet" so long as they are not clearly and immediately sinking...

...but so far it seems to be working for my kid.

My point is that, if they have the power to jam a GOOD idea down your throat, they also have the power (or at least the precedent) to jam a BAD idea down your throat.

Not everybody is totally against or totally for, my mom is very skeptical of vaccines due to her own personal experiences as a mother. I've mentioned this a few times on here but my brother suffered brain damage as a baby around the time he got some vaccination so the question is whether or not the vaccine is really necessary given the potential adverse effects it can have some of which can have lifelong effects. You pick and choose what you think is necessary and worth the risk, a dog or cats life is obviously not the equivalent to that of a person so it's a silly comparison to me. I think its pretty silly to have people look down on their noses at people because they didn't get vaccinated for a sickness that isn't life or death or from adult lifestyles and decisions, do you think it is really necessary that a 7 year old get a Hep B or HPV vaccine? Even measles which we hear so much about recently isn't really a deadly disease, it's just very unpleasant more times than not. The specifics aren't really important here regardless, it's the parent's choice and they have to weigh this decision for what's best for them and their family. The government does not own you.

You would.

You would also think that people would (as I did, four times) weigh the POTENTIAL RISKS of measles (deafness, blindness, profound brain damage, death) against the POTENTIAL RISKS of the vaccine (different for everyone; in most people's case it's a seriously but briefly pissed-off kid, a sore arm/leg, a low-grade fever and/or rash, feeling like a sack of s**t as you haul them weeping and wailing by main force into the doctor's office next time, whatever bribe you offered them to gain their compliance, and the dimly defined and possibly unfounded fears of "developmental disorders, various, most likely mild, although of course it's Autism Every Day/Rainman, not the mildly eccentric woman next door, that you think of when you're terrified of something happening to your kid") and, unless they are dealing with allergy, family history of allergy, conditions predisposing a VARS event, or immunosuppression, choose to get the jab, console the screaming child (and possibly the weeping nurse), buy them a lollipop, put some ice on it, and move on.

I saw some well-intentioned knothead on the news this morning sobbing about how "It involved me and a nurse holding down my screaming child while another nurse stuck a needle into her arm. I just don't think that's NATURAL..." TOUGHEN UP, LADY. Been there, done that. It involved me and two nurses holding down my kicking, thrashing, screaming son (who was one year old, weighted all of 20 pounds, stood less than 2 feet tall, and suddenly grew eight extra arms and legs and turned into a gingered-up, well-greased 500-pound boar) while a third nurse stuck a needle in his poor little leg. I had to hand the nurses tissues, tell them that if they felt bad now they should read the description of traching a toddler with diphtheria that constitutes the first chapter of The Dollmaker, and apologize profusely for the small square foot one of them took to the throat...

...and 20 minutes later, following a long hug, a quick tit, and a cherry lollipop, he was trotting across the parking lot with sunbeams radiating from his hyperactive little face, gleefully screeching "Bird! Bird! Bird!" and trying to yank his organically ADHD self free of his mother's hand.

While we're on the subject of "not natural," don't ask for amoxicillin when your kid gets strep throat, cause it ain't natural. Don't reach for the Nixx when your kid gets head lice-- get a field guide to plants and a big old pot, hunt yourself up some Jerusalem oak or whatever insecticidal plant grows in your neck of the woods, boil it down to a strong infusion, and put it on your kid's head. Soak overnight. Rinse it out and nit-comb them. Every day, for two weeks. NATURAL. Public playgrounds aren't natural, public school isn't natural, central heat isn't natural, Whole Foods grocery store isn't natural. A NATURAL infant mortality rate is about 20%.

And if you think THAT was a mean statement, at least I didn't say that I have a nice, organic, responsibly wildcrafted cup of all-natural hemlock tea for you.

Do I think that The Government ought to be allowed to ban you from their public schools if you don't vaccinate your kid?? YES-- both for the safety of everyone else, and for the safety of your kid. Basic principles of infection control. Lots of people packed closely together day after day after day, breathing in recirculated air loaded with the droplets of their cellmates, I mean classmates, as well as hundreds of other inmates , I mean students-- yeah, another term for that environment is "PETRI DISH." I'm tempted to start demanding that my kids suck down a tablespoon of ascorbic acid in 8 ounces of OJ every morning before school for the remainder of their incarceration, I mean education, just because we've dealt with that many sick-enough-to-be-grouchy-but-not-sick-enough-to-be-sick colds over the course of eight years of having at least one kid in public school. Vaccinate, find a private school conducive to your beliefs, or homeschool (and while we're at it, please stop harassing homeschoolers with threats, harassing phone calls, and a level of intrusion, regulation, and documentation that would result in mass strikes if imposed on teachers in public schools-- for crying out loud, unless incompetence is evidenced, please presume parental competence!!)

Do I think that your pediatrician's office ought to be allowed to refuse to see you if you refuse to vaccinate your kid?? YES-- both for the safety of the immunocompromised and unvaccinatable children they see, and again for the safety of your kid. Don't want to vaccinate?? Find a congenial practitioner. Why would you want to put your child's health in the hands of a practitioner whose philosophy of medicine you disagree profoundly with in the first place?!?!?!

Do I think that you should be issued a copy of Where There Is No Doctor, a copy of The Prepper's Guide to Uncommon Diseases, a copy of The Home-Health Handbook, a carton of appropriate medical supplies, food and water (though you can, and should, obtain all of those things yourself), and required to quarantine yourself and your family in the event of [insert disease we vaccinate against here]?? YES. Back in the "bad old days," cookbooks commonly included remedies, medicines, and treatment instructions for such things. Children were, by the time they reached adulthood, taught by experience to be watchful for signs of communicable disease and to quarantine and care for their sick.

If you didn't do it, the Long Arm of the Government might not come down on you, but you'd bear the full weight of Seriously Pissed-Off Neighbors.

I just DON'T think that TPTB should be able to force you to comply on pain of criminal charges and/or placing your children with someone who will comply. Because that's called "usurping the role of the parent." Because if they can force a good idea, they can force a bad one. Because they're only human. Because the slippery slope may be a logical fallacy, but people aren't logical.