Okay Josh Duggar....

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Ana…you're admitting that you're basing all this on speculation. I'm sorry, but that's not very useful here. It doesn't necessarily follow that Josh had to see this behavior somewhere. You're basing everything on the ASSUMPTION that Josh is imitating something. There's no need to assume that. I'm struggling with getting my youngest to use the toilet, and it's not fun… But he's definitely figured out there's something down there. 2 and 3 year old kids can figure that much out. It's natural that kids become curious about their bodies and the bodies of others. You admit they're isolated from a lot of society and sheltered through homeschooling. If you're reasonably intelligent, it doesn't take much work to figure it out. He sees girls, and the only girls he sees are the ones in his family. Seeing other developing bodies make him feel funny. Feelings and hormones get the better of him, so he starts checking out the mechanics. Slam. Dunk.

Or here's another possibility: You can deny society, you can deny mass communication, but you can't deny nature. Go watch "The Blue Lagoon" sometime. Private parts do the things they do for a reason. Sooner or later you're going to figure it out. You don't need parents, teachers, or a sex education course to pick up on what's really going on with the birds and the bees.

Speculation? Sure. I have no idea what's going on with them. You might be right. But I find this line of discussion, especially of this nature and based on nothing but speculation, to be utterly tasteless.

I need to study up more on the details.

Those teachings didn't start with Bill Gothard. He just came to be well known for that particular interpretation and is merely passing it along. Obviously he has fallen in the faith. Any time you see that happen, it's going to create a power vacuum that the next big leader is going to fill. There's nothing really interesting about that.

I'll be honest, I like some of their ideas and practices. I don't homeschool my kids, but I do send my oldest two to a Catholic school. I'm not crazy about certain Catholic teachings, and we explain to our children where we disagree with "The Church." But they do take religion class, and the behavioral standards compared to other schools in our area…well, there's no comparison, and we're appalled with what we see coming out of public and other private schools. My youngest, 3 years old, is already learning piano and how to read from hanging out with me all day every day. MOST of our kids exposure to television is educational programming and news, and we're very strict with their movie time and content. Not ALL the time, but most of the time, and yes, that means our kids have been exposed to Rated R movies. I'm not comfortable with a lot of exposure to the secular world and we are very picky about who we let our kids hang out with or who they communicate with. And the summer months away from school are highly structured. So, yeah, I'm attracted to a lifestyle that purposefully avoids or eliminates negative influences and stresses a relationship with God first before building positive relationships with others.

We might differ from the Duggars when it comes to more legalistic practices. So while I may not agree or accept everything, I do admire their courage for being weird. I still believe most of the hate and scandal is more related to that weirdness and envy of their success.

AngleRho,

You only need to see the video of Pa Duggar humping Ma at the Putt-Putt in front of Jessa and her fiance to know what you are dealing with. They gave the camera the PG-13 version and if they do that in front of the camera, what do you think they do when the camera isn't around and it's only family? Pa Duggar says it's okay because that is what he calls showing everyone he loves Ma. That's his definition of love. When you see stuff like that going on, the logical conclusion is, Josh might have either witnessed or been sexually abused himself.

Non sequitur.

So you don't see the pattern of inappropriate touching? There is a clearly a pattern. They even idolize a man, Bill Gothard, who has been accused and left an organization for the same thing. You deny it?

And if you notice, in the video at the Putt Putt, Jessa watches her parents and although she seems a bit embarrassed, but not much, she appears more at ease and used to it while her fiance, Ben Seewald, and you will notice the body language and everything, is clearly NOT used to it and is quite embarrassed by what they are doing.

So? Touching and sex even in the strictest Christian household is acceptable for married couples. Are they married? Yes? Then who cares how they express their affection?

All of which is irrelevant. Your assertion that a young person who observes how his parents behaves around each other is either imitating them or is a victim of abuse as being a "logical conclusion" is FALSE. It isn't logical. It's speculation. Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow.

Michelle looks a little uncomfortable in that video.

I just think people like myself watch this video and find it a little creepy. It just seems a little hypocritical. I think it's creepy when he says "Does that feel good?" The assumption being that even though she's acting coy she must be enjoying it. She goes along with it for the cameras but she just seems uncomfortable to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

I mean it's one thing what you do in your own bedroom, but this sort of public display of affection I just find a little creepy especially when coming from Jim Bob.

My parents never acted this way in public when I was a teenager. I admit in a different context that the scene could be written off as harmless. But for a family that's supposed to be so pure, it just seems a little baffling.

And what about ATI's teachings on sexual abuse?

http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool ... 1706406324

Depends on what you mean by "pure," though. PDA even for married couples might be seen as gross, but it's not impure in the sense that sexual expression within the confines of marriage isn't considered impure.

My brief time on a reality show was pretty revealing when it came to characters playing it up for the camera. No doubt there's some of that going on. But even if they're like that IRL, at worst it's improper, gross, or creepy. Good luck finding scripture that explicitly condemns it. Even Abraham was caught fondling Sarah once.

What issues specifically? I skimmed the lesson plan and I'm having a little trouble understanding what the objections are exactly. Gawker seems biased to me and perhaps context has been altered somewhat, because I'm just not seeing it. What happened with Josh very recently seems to prove recoveringgrace.org's point that even the most seemingly minute (to the young person, not the adult) has the direst consequences and you risk this stuff following you the rest of your life as well as negatively impacting your spiritual life. Looks like they nailed it.

The only remotely iffy thing I can see is potential victim-blaming. My objection here really is a minor one, and it amounts basically to saying "you don't give a drunk a drink." If you know or are close to someone with a problem, in this case one of a sexual nature, the best way you can help them is through dressing modestly. I understand this is at odds with the idea that women shouldn't be subjugated to male domination, etc., etc. If we're talking about adults here, then a guy simply avoids women like a recovering alcoholic avoids liquor stores. God isn't going to refill your liquor cabinet or compel you to go into a liquor store. But Josh didn't have it quite that easy. As a teenager there's no way out. Accommodations aren't unreasonable to ask for in a situation like that. And, besides, they did get Josh out of there for counseling.

As to Gothard himself… Bear in mind these aren't HIS ideas. He's just been a major proponent of it. The family might support Gothard in the sense they are capable of forgiving a fellow believer as Christ forgives us. I respect that. But Gothard doesn't own those teachings. You want to look directly at ATI. I'm not saying I'm all that knowledgeable about any of it. I'm really not. I'm only saying I have yet to see something that's really a serious issue.

The problem isn't really with Josh, since he was a kid when all this happened and has really just fallen victim to a select number of hatemongerers. The problem isn't really with ATI, since they promote an interpretation of scripture that isn't necessarily all that awful. The main problem I have with them is they have hangups on details, and that unfortunately is a common characteristic among cults. But I'm not seeing an overwhelmingly large number of theological problems. The only SERIOUS problem is Gothard himself. He's a fallen, disgraced teacher suffering through a deep need for spiritual restoration and forgiveness from those he has harmed, assuming anyone WOULD forgive him. That's really about all you can say about Gothard. His supporters no doubt see where he is wrong, but rather than choose to turn on him and destroy him, they are trying to handle this in the most Christ-like way they are capable of. I'm not sure I can show that level of sympathy. But it strikes a severe contrast with the rest of the world that's so quick to hate and never forgive.

So that leaves ATI, whether people actually DO follow their teachings, where ATI is wrong or inconsistent with scripture, and whether ATI has actually caused any of this to happen. I'm not yet convinced that they have, and I'm genuinely interested in whether there's anything out there that could convince me otherwise.

And then there's the allegations brought against Josh Duggar, very similar to those brought against Bill Gothard. You can argue with me all you want to, still doesn't change the situation for Josh. I am just pointing out the facts. I have pointed to two strange occurrences - the Putt Putt video and the Duggar worship of a man accused of inappropriate touching. These, madam, are facts!

Keep in mind the Putt Putt episode of 19 Kids and Counting was made before the Josh scandal went public...It was Duggars being Duggars. Duggars at their most natural.

AngelRho, I too am a little disgusted with some of the hatred being spewed at the family. People forget sometimes that attacking the parents very loud, vocally, and angrily, will actually be rather damaging to the children, who of course most likely respect their parents as flawed as they are. The daughters did go on live TV and defend their brother, and it is their RIGHT to do so. Nobody has the right to take away their decision to forgive him.

The only concern I have is that they were COERCED into doing so. However, I am just speculating. I have no proof.

I do not have any proof that the Duggar's belief system directly caused this sexual abuse to occur or enabled it. There are certainly plenty of red flags though.

People forget sometimes that incest is fairly common and it occurs outside of religious families as well. What people are angry about is how the situation was handled.

HeavenlyAbyss, Keep in mind, in their hearts, Ma and Pa Duggar are haters disguised as Christians who feel everyone in this country should be like them. That is the truth. Michelle Duggar might appear lovely and sweet but she is very intolerant of anyone who doesn't fit into this Quiverfull mold. Most Xtians don't even fit into this extreme way of life. You might feel bad for them but if you lived among people like this, in this part of the country, you would understand, they are haters getting back hate. It's a cycle and they don't seem to want to end that cycle. I don't feel sorry for them because I know what these people are really like. These people miss out on the sacred heart of Jesus aspect of Christianity which simply means you have a heart and that's a real shame. Until they realize this, they are going to be stuck in the same bs, same goes with WBC. They have no one but themselves to blame. They need to check themselves but these people are incredibly brainwashed. They are the only ones who can help themselves and until they figure it out, it's going to be like this for them. It's like anyone who has a profound character flaw but absolutely refuses to listen to anyone who tries to tell them something about themselves. You reach the point you cannot feel sympathy for such persons especially if you have tried, many times, and completely voluntarily, to help explain it to them. They reject it time and time again. I can't tell you how frustrating it is!

I went to a WBC "Preaching" I did feel sorry for them and I wanted to help them so I tried to reach out. They got so much hate they had to leave within five minutes and there were plenty of trucks with coal rollers blowing black smoke at them from their exhaust pipes. People were driving by, yelling insults. It was awful. So, I sincerely reached out and was I in for quite a surprise. I discovered these people expect this! Why? Because it's written in the Bible that's how people will respond to them and if they don't, it means something's the matter with WBC, they are being "lukewarm Christians."

It's a really twisted, strange way of looking at life. Sympathy is really wasted here. It doesn't matter. They don't want it and it's very difficult accepting this fact when you feel sorry for a group of people but it's how they want it. They wouldn't have it any other way. Anyone that backs off is called "lukewarm" and they say Jesus hates them.

Except you're conveniently skipping over the fact that Josh Duggar was a young teenager when that happened and he was disciplined for it. Bill Gothard was already a senior citizen when stuff hit the fan. Either he's going senile or he's a hypocrite or a creep. Either way, people expect better from someone like Bill. If you behave that way as a kid, #1 they (meaning law enforcement/justice system) keep it private and #2 keep it off your record as an adult. Your conclusion is NOT logical, and everything else is irrelevant. You don't have a case here.

Nobody knows if Josh was actually disciplined and if you read up on ATI and what they advocate, anytime Josh sees someone in a two piece bathing suit or skimpy clothing, and he becomes aroused, it's okay to go ahead and have sex with them. It won't be Josh's fault. It will be the fault of the one wearing the clothing for creating urges in Josh that cannot be "righteously fulfilled." This is Duggar terminology, btw. Is this your idea of counseling because it definitely isn't the American Psychiatric Association's idea although it does pay to know about it because then we can all prepare for ATI rationalizing and thinking in our everyday lives. These people are powerful and you can bet they lobby for laws that reflect this way of thinking. It's the same thinking the Taliban and certain Muslims use in their religion.

Just because Michelle and Jim Bob say Josh was disciplined doesn't make it so. Sending him to Little Rock isn't discipline, exactly. And if he makes another "mistake" you can bet every Duggar will do their best to cover it up after this.

The only thing we can argue or discuss is really where to go from here IF one thing or another is the case. As of yet there's no convincing case against the Duggars. You won't get any argument from me that the Gothard situation is messed up. But I will dispute that ATI is a product of Gothard (and ONLY Gothard) until I see evidence to the contrary. And I will also dispute that the Duggars are a product of Gothard's improprieties. In Christian churches, and really any kind of religion anywhere, you're going to find that there are leaders and teachers who excel at effective dissemination of established spiritual truths, or at least scriptural truths relative to whatever religion/faith you're examining. Some religions/sects/cults ACTIVELY teach things such as sexual deviance. You can't confuse the actions of leaders outside their own teaching with the teaching itself. Sexual deviance was actually instituted in groups like Branch Davidians under David Koresh and groups like the Manson family. The Family International actively used sex as a way of enticing potential new converts until the spread of disease, HIV/AIDS in particular made it impossible to continue the practice. MOST Christians, including Gothard himself, will actively speak out AGAINST sex outside marriage. Clearly Gothard failed to practice the teachings of his own church and has been destroyed as a Christian leader.


Maybe, but I'm just not seeing…YET. I'm not one of those people who can't admit he's wrong about something, and this isn't really going to affect me one way or the other.


True. I also think that some people simply take pleasure in seeing successful people fail and fall. It's disgusting. But schadenfreude, deserved or not, is just a part of human nature.