Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Police

Page 2 of 6 [ 86 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 9:30 pm

beakybird wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
you are incorrect. punishment is not the domain of police.


Agreed. Nor is passing judgement on guilt or innocence. Nor is even getting to the bottom of who did what in a a situation (most patrol cops/thats a detective's job) In theory it is "to protect and serve" the public. Was that way for many years. So yes, helping private citizens in need is part of their job. They are paid with tax revenue. If you pay taxes, the police are your employees in a sense. Except try telling one that and you're likely to have your face smashed in on the concrete or hood of his car.

Today the police are there to generate revenue for the dept. This is done through tickets and drug seizures. Which is one reason why in criminalized states they look so hard for marijuana. The fines and possible seizures are a gold mine.

But police also need to show respect like they used to years ago to the public.



Exactly. But the revenue they generate is for local municipalities, funds that go into the retirement coffers of librarians, teachers, etc.

But they also don't know what a bad guy looks like. You don't know the realities they have to face, and the reality they have to face isn't just the one in their own suburb, but the one faced by friends in run-down innercity ghettos. And though worlds apart, it's only a ten minute drive between the two. So their always on edge for that reason.

Look, amongst cops, you'll have relaxed ones and sticklers, but as a general rule, they are often no better or no worse, then the environments they have to police. So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce. Being revenue generators on behalf of local municipalities is another issue because cities can't print money when they run out, but that's a much easier fix.


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 9:33 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Why do they believe that doing their job requires that level of force?


You have cops who use excessive amounts of force. You have others that don't...

Are you saying the force that all cops(or the average cop) use is too much?


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

23 Aug 2015, 9:34 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Look, amongst cops, you'll have relaxed ones and sticklers, but as a general rule, they are often no better or no worse, then the environments they have to police. So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce.


If we want police to be less brutal we shouldn't have crime? shouldn't have poverty? What are you saying?



blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

23 Aug 2015, 9:38 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Why do they believe that doing their job requires that level of force?


You have cops who use excessive amounts of force. You have others that don't...

Are you saying the force that all cops(or the average cop) use is too much?


I am saying that any number of cops using excessive force is too many.

For example - six cops responding to some chucklehead selling loose cigarettes? wtf?



MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 9:40 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Look, amongst cops, you'll have relaxed ones and sticklers, but as a general rule, they are often no better or no worse, then the environments they have to police. So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce.


If we want police to be less brutal we shouldn't have crime? shouldn't have poverty? What are you saying?


Are you saying that all poor people are equal when it comes to crime?

It's culture man... poor Jews tend not to engage in violent crimes to the extant that poor blacks do.

The same with poor Asians.

But poor Jews and poor Asians, who have the same culture as many poor blacks, engage in the same amount of crimes as poor blacks do.

The greatest proof may be the fact that poor non-muslim blacks who recently immigrated from Africa, have as low a rate of violent-crime involvement, as middle-class whites and asians. Even poor Muslim blacks, who recently immigrated from Africa, commit far less crimes, then poor African Americans of slave ancestry.

So it isn't an issue of race, or poverty. It's one of culture.


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

23 Aug 2015, 9:43 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Look, amongst cops, you'll have relaxed ones and sticklers, but as a general rule, they are often no better or no worse, then the environments they have to police. So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce.


If we want police to be less brutal we shouldn't have crime? shouldn't have poverty? What are you saying?


Are you saying that all poor people are equal when it comes to crime?

It's culture man... poor Jews tend not to engage in violent crimes to the extant that poor blacks do.

The same with poor Asians.

But poor Jews and poor Asians, who have the same culture as many poor blacks, engage in the same amount of crimes as poor blacks do.

The greatest proof may be the fact that poor non-muslim blacks who recently immigrated from Africa, have as low a rate of violent-crime involvement, as middle-class whites and asians. Even poor Muslim blacks, who recently immigrated from Africa, commit far less crimes, then poor African Americans of slave ancestry.

So it isn't an issue of race, or poverty. It's one of culture.


No I am saying that your position is illogical.

Police are expected to be professionals. They are required to uphold the law. They are not above the law.

The situation they are put in cannot begin to excuse bad behavior.



MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 9:45 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Why do they believe that doing their job requires that level of force?


You have cops who use excessive amounts of force. You have others that don't...

Are you saying the force that all cops(or the average cop) use is too much?


I am saying that any number of cops using excessive force is too many.

For example - six cops responding to some chucklehead selling loose cigarettes? wtf?


Yeah. Because you're messing with the state's revenue, and he's been told many times before not to sell loose cigs. Cigarretes aren't expensive to manufacture or sell, but thanks to the Left, they are overtaxed to discourage smoking, and since people don't want to give up that vice, the local government/state becomes addicted to the revenue it makes off of it. Your blaming cops for collecting revenue for the state, revenue that helps pay for other public workers retirements.

Wasn't he told many times to stop selling loose cigarettes? And they didn't need to do what they did if he had not struggled. He's a big guy and no one knew of his health issues.


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 9:55 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Look, amongst cops, you'll have relaxed ones and sticklers, but as a general rule, they are often no better or no worse, then the environments they have to police. So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce.


If we want police to be less brutal we shouldn't have crime? shouldn't have poverty? What are you saying?


Are you saying that all poor people are equal when it comes to crime?

It's culture man... poor Jews tend not to engage in violent crimes to the extant that poor blacks do.

The same with poor Asians.

But poor Jews and poor Asians, who have the same culture as many poor blacks, engage in the same amount of crimes as poor blacks do.

The greatest proof may be the fact that poor non-muslim blacks who recently immigrated from Africa, have as low a rate of violent-crime involvement, as middle-class whites and asians. Even poor Muslim blacks, who recently immigrated from Africa, commit far less crimes, then poor African Americans of slave ancestry.

So it isn't an issue of race, or poverty. It's one of culture.


No I am saying that your position is illogical.

Police are expected to be professionals. They are required to uphold the law. They are not above the law.

The situation they are put in cannot begin to excuse bad behavior.



Well fine, but you're the one who made the connection between my suggestion of better culture as a demand for no crime or poverty, as if the two are the reason why cops are forced to confront those whom they end up using force against, excessive or not. Poverty isn't the cause behind the people who cops have to use force against.

They are expected to be professional, but they aren't expected to be uber-human perfectionists, and certainly no more then any other public or private servant, from doctors to your mailman/woman. They are required to uphold the law, but they don't break the law as much as those they cite or arrest. Unless of course you believe that cops are frequently breaking the law and not being held accountable for their actions. Which I wholly admit exists. But the intensity of your focus on this injustice suggests not only a prevalence of this throughout police departments everywhere, but also that cops are breaking the law far more then non-cops are. Is that what you're saying?


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

23 Aug 2015, 9:58 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Why do they believe that doing their job requires that level of force?


You have cops who use excessive amounts of force. You have others that don't...

Are you saying the force that all cops(or the average cop) use is too much?


I am saying that any number of cops using excessive force is too many.

For example - six cops responding to some chucklehead selling loose cigarettes? wtf?


Yeah. Because you're messing with the state's revenue, and he's been told many times before not to sell loose cigs. Cigarretes aren't expensive to manufacture or sell, but thanks to the Left, they are overtaxed to discourage smoking, and since people don't want to give up that vice, the local government/state becomes addicted to the revenue it makes off of it. Your blaming cops for collecting revenue for the state, revenue that helps pay for other public workers retirements.

Wasn't he told many times to stop selling loose cigarettes? And they didn't need to do what they did if he had not struggled. He's a big guy and no one knew of his health issues.


They should have handed him a citation and walked away.



MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 10:03 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Why do they believe that doing their job requires that level of force?


You have cops who use excessive amounts of force. You have others that don't...

Are you saying the force that all cops(or the average cop) use is too much?


I am saying that any number of cops using excessive force is too many.

For example - six cops responding to some chucklehead selling loose cigarettes? wtf?


Yeah. Because you're messing with the state's revenue, and he's been told many times before not to sell loose cigs. Cigarretes aren't expensive to manufacture or sell, but thanks to the Left, they are overtaxed to discourage smoking, and since people don't want to give up that vice, the local government/state becomes addicted to the revenue it makes off of it. Your blaming cops for collecting revenue for the state, revenue that helps pay for other public workers retirements.

Wasn't he told many times to stop selling loose cigarettes? And they didn't need to do what they did if he had not struggled. He's a big guy and no one knew of his health issues.


They should have handed him a citation and walked away.


That wouldn't stop him from cutting the state short. It's not like the state will always be around to cite him every time he cuts the state short of its revenue. He's stealing from librarians and teachers and street cleaners and district attorneys. Would you rather public transit workers walked around with gun holsters doing this to people instead of cops?


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


Ban-Dodger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jun 2011
Age: 1027
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,820
Location: Возможно в будущее к Россию идти... можеть быть...

23 Aug 2015, 10:41 pm

The Messiah was a former Police-Officer who has written much essay for the Police & Court-Systems.
The OFFENDER Document : Police & Prisons Dept
God v/s the State of Tasmania : The enlightenment of the police & judiciary

Also included is a Rehabilitation-Plan that would actually work to reduce crimes & the reasons why.


_________________
Pay me for my signature. 私の署名ですか❓お前の買うなければなりません。Mon autographe nécessite un paiement. Которые хочет мою автографу, у тебя нужно есть деньги сюда. Bezahlst du mich, wenn du meine Unterschrift wollen.


RhodyStruggle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 508

23 Aug 2015, 10:48 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce.


Nah. You want better cops, you impose mandatory executions for LEOs found guilty (by secret, non-LEO affiliated tribunals) of any crime that would result in any penalty more serious than a fifty dollar fine if the guilty party weren't a cop.

When every cop has to walk past a long row of pikes adorned with the decapitated heads of their corrupt colleagues at the start of every shift, you will see the end of police corruption.


_________________
From start to finish I've made you feel this
Uncomfort in turn with the world you've learned
To love through this hate to live with its weight
A burden discerned in the blood you taste


blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

23 Aug 2015, 10:59 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Why do they believe that doing their job requires that level of force?


You have cops who use excessive amounts of force. You have others that don't...

Are you saying the force that all cops(or the average cop) use is too much?


I am saying that any number of cops using excessive force is too many.

For example - six cops responding to some chucklehead selling loose cigarettes? wtf?


Yeah. Because you're messing with the state's revenue, and he's been told many times before not to sell loose cigs. Cigarretes aren't expensive to manufacture or sell, but thanks to the Left, they are overtaxed to discourage smoking, and since people don't want to give up that vice, the local government/state becomes addicted to the revenue it makes off of it. Your blaming cops for collecting revenue for the state, revenue that helps pay for other public workers retirements.

Wasn't he told many times to stop selling loose cigarettes? And they didn't need to do what they did if he had not struggled. He's a big guy and no one knew of his health issues.


They should have handed him a citation and walked away.


That wouldn't stop him from cutting the state short. It's not like the state will always be around to cite him every time he cuts the state short of its revenue. He's stealing from librarians and teachers and street cleaners and district attorneys. Would you rather public transit workers walked around with gun holsters doing this to people instead of cops?


Unless he bought those on the res or something, they were already taxed when he bought them.

Cops should not be in a position of producing or protecting revenue streams. But that's a separate issue.

Minor crimes are minor crimes and people shouldn't die over them. They shouldn't even be threatened over them.



cberg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

23 Aug 2015, 11:02 pm

@RhodyStruggle
Yeah, that about spells it out. Anybody who can be corrupted will. I live in a small to mid-sized city with a fairly low crime rate and our cops are always involved in one shady moronic dealing or another. Sometimes it's sex scandals, sometimes it's illegal hunting in the city and sometimes it's straight up extortion in the form of fine hikes and ticked quotas. We ALWAYS see more police during the last week of any month lately.

What did we do about it you ask? We bought our police new cruisers, hundreds of thirsty 4x4s (we get around just fine in anything despite the snow) and quite a number of BMW patrol bikes. 1200cc BMWs! For those of you unfamiliar, just one of those is a $20,000+ motorcycle.

Crazy f***s act justified with belts full of torture implements.


_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos :mrgreen:


MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 11:12 pm

cberg wrote:
@RhodyStruggle
Yeah, that about spells it out. Anybody who can be corrupted will. I live in a small to mid-sized city with a fairly low crime rate and our cops are always involved in one shady moronic dealing or another. Sometimes it's sex scandals, sometimes it's illegal hunting in the city and sometimes it's straight up extortion in the form of fine hikes and ticked quotas. We ALWAYS see more police during the last week of any month lately.

What did we do about it you ask? We bought our police new cruisers, hundreds of thirsty 4x4s (we get around just fine in anything despite the snow) and quite a number of BMW patrol bikes. 1200cc BMWs! For those of you unfamiliar, just one of those is a $20,000+ motorcycle.

Crazy f***s act justified with belts full of torture implements.


Maybe you live in a corrupt small town lol


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

23 Aug 2015, 11:17 pm

RhodyStruggle wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
So if you want better cops, then first improve the culture of the area before you get mad at the kind of public servants they produce.


Nah. You want better cops, you impose mandatory executions for LEOs found guilty (by secret, non-LEO affiliated tribunals) of any crime that would result in any penalty more serious than a fifty dollar fine if the guilty party weren't a cop.

When every cop has to walk past a long row of pikes adorned with the decapitated heads of their corrupt colleagues at the start of every shift, you will see the end of police corruption.


Well sure, but you're isolating societies corruption(and the kind of public servants these environments create) to the police. Why not extend that same penalty to the public, as well as all public servants. You're libeling an institution of guilt that I don't quite think they earned? Certainly compared to the good work they do, either on behalf of the public, or collecting revenue for fellow public servants...

I mean if the only time we talk about cops is when we talk about how bad they are, and expect of them things we expect of no one else including violent criminals, then maybe that's an indication that we hate cops and don't want them around.


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.