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Is there any proof that the Torah is a corrupted text?

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Fnord
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05 Nov 2015, 7:44 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
underwater wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
equal, Islam is much closer to Jewish Christianity, which is an extinct early form of Non-Trinitarian Christianity (a transitional phase between Judaism and Paulist Christianity you mentioned). "Al Nassarah" mentioned in the Quran are not the same modern Christians we know today, those were Non-Trinitarian Christians, and there were many of them in Arabia. Islam considers Trinity as polytheism - and it's considered as one of the greatest sins; so there's no way the Quran would call Trinitarian Christians as "People of the Book", this latter refer to Jews and to Non-Trinitarian Christians.
. Wasn't Muhammed's first wife a Christian? I am unsure whether this is a myth or history, but the story I heard was this: That Muhammed had his revelation, and then crawled home on his hands and knees in a horrible state. That he put his head in his wife's lap and that she tried to calm him down. He was trying to explain his revelation to her, but not making sense, so she called her cousin, who was an educated man, to come and make sense of it all.
She was Ebionite (A nontrinitarian christian sect), her cousin was an Ebionite priest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites#Islam

Fundamental Islam places Trinitian Christians (those who believe in Jesus as son of God) at the same level of poly pagans.
More history on that woman ...

Quote:
Khadija bint Khuwaylid

At age 25, Muhammad wed his wealthy employer, the 40-year-old merchant Khadija. This marriage, his first, would be both happy and monogamous; Muhammad would rely on the wealthy Khadija in many ways, until her death 25 years later. They had two sons, Qasim and Abd-Allah (nicknamed al-Ṭāhir and al-Ṭayyib respectively), both died young, and four daughters - Zaynab, Ruqaiya, Umm Kulthum and Fatimah. Shia scholars dispute the paternity of Khadija's daughters, as they view the first three of them as the daughters from previous marriages and only Fatimah as the daughter of Muhammad and Khadija. During their marriage, Khadija purchased the slave Zayd ibn Harithah, then adopted the young man as her son at Muhammad's request.


I think that he married her for her money and influence.


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underwater
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05 Nov 2015, 7:58 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
underwater wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
equal, Islam is much closer to Jewish Christianity, which is an extinct early form of Non-Trinitarian Christianity (a transitional phase between Judaism and Paulist Christianity you mentioned).

"Al Nassarah" mentioned in the Quran are not the same modern Christians we know today, those were Non-Trinitarian Christians, and there were many of them in Arabia.

Islam considers Trinity as polytheism - and it's considered as one of the greatest sins; so there's no way the Quran would call Trinitarian Christians as "People of the Book", this latter refer to Jews and to Non-Trinitarian Christians.


Wasn't Muhammed's first wife a Christian? I am unsure whether this is a myth or history, but the story I heard was this: That Muhammed had his revelation, and then crawled home on his hands and knees in a horrible state. That he put his head in his wife's lap and that she tried to calm him down. He was trying to explain his revelation to her, but not making sense, so she called her cousin, who was an educated man, to come and make sense of it all.


She was Ebionite (A nontrinitarian christian sect), her cousin was an Ebionite priest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites#Islam


Aaah, I'm frequently surprised when it turns out I remember stuff like this correctly. My head is so full of this random trivia, no wonder there's no space for social skills in there. Thanks for the info, I always enjoy learning something new.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fundamental Islam places Trinitian Christians (those who believe in Jesus as son of God) at the same level of poly pagans.


Yes, yes, lovely. The older I get, the more I think that the polytheists are at least closer to the truth than the monotheists. From reading old Norse sagas, the people in a way seem more real than modern people. They somehow seem more honest about their intentions, less likely to rationalize their behavior through some moralistic theory of the perfectly constructed universe.

Again, I'm referencing unreliable old texts and interpreting them the way I like :)



underwater
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05 Nov 2015, 8:16 am

Fnord wrote:
Quote:
Khadija bint Khuwaylid

At age 25, Muhammad wed his wealthy employer, the 40-year-old merchant Khadija. This marriage, his first, would be both happy and monogamous; Muhammad would rely on the wealthy Khadija in many ways, until her death 25 years later. They had two sons, Qasim and Abd-Allah (nicknamed al-Ṭāhir and al-Ṭayyib respectively), both died young, and four daughters - Zaynab, Ruqaiya, Umm Kulthum and Fatimah. Shia scholars dispute the paternity of Khadija's daughters, as they view the first three of them as the daughters from previous marriages and only Fatimah as the daughter of Muhammad and Khadija. During their marriage, Khadija purchased the slave Zayd ibn Harithah, then adopted the young man as her son at Muhammad's request.


I think that he married her for her money and influence.


Of course he did. That's what people did in those times, and that's how the Middle East functions to this day. Muhammed was known to be handsome and a smooth talker, probably very useful in a career as a salesman. Considering how Islam has spread, do you believe that Muhammed was good at convincing people to buy his products? This is of course pure conjecture, but I assume that Khadija saw him as an asset as well. A medieval power couple so to speak :)

Consider that Muhammed was an orphan. His father died before his birth, and his mother when he was six years old. He didn't bring with him very influential family connections, but on the other hand there were no direct in-laws to make Khadija's life hell.



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05 Nov 2015, 11:52 am

MonsterCrack wrote:
I could imagine the Gospels being a corrupted text, but not the Torah or the Qur'an.... In Judaism, they are not even allowed to change a single LETTER of the Torah.... and same with the Qur'an


Meh still open to interpretation, and no proof that any god, prophet or anything else came down and told humans what to write or even wrote it himself. It is the word of humans with a certain religious belief, claimed to be the word of whatever respective god is being worshiped.

Also not sure any of these books are actually 100% historically accurate, and then of course there are anecdotal stories in them people take as absolute unquestionable fact. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I think books are books...even ones championed as the word of some god.


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05 Nov 2015, 1:02 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
The problem with that idea is easily to come along after the fact, then assert you have the immutable faith.

The reality is the Torah has actually become more concrete. There were several historic prototypes to the Torah. The archaeology supports that Judaism formed out of a Cannaite subculture and even retains some characteristics of the pre-Abrahamic faiths, and was originally polytheistic.

This evidence affect the understanding of not just Judaism but Christianity and Islam too.

Having said that Paulist Christianity is what modern Christianity is. Jewish Christianity effectively died out.

The Gospel are individual accounts anyway, each one is different that is the idea. The council of Nicaea also decided which ones would be retained.

The problem Islam has is is account of Christianity isn't consistent with any of the various contemporary first century including those by non-Christian.

The Christian period is a weakness of the Quran becuase it shows lack of knowledge of the time and place, and it is also quite light on detail.

I would say Islam is more influenced by Judaism than Christianity. Much more Old Testament than New.

The idea of one of the Abrahmic faiths calling the other less pure shows lack of awareness of how these beliefs came to be.


You made a lot of good comments on the first page and it pretty well matches what I've seen as well. I also had the chance to read Reza's book and it helped to clarify that the Christianity of James was a different thing from that of John and Paul.

Another thing that seems likely - John and Paul may have had a lot to do with astrotheologizing of Jesus in the sense of the solar logos symbolism. The astrotheological thread seems to run firmly through the Torah, major and minor prophets, and it was perhaps the Hellenistic Jews who recaptured the life and works of Jesus into that framework.


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05 Nov 2015, 4:48 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Islam considers Trinity as polytheism which is considered as one of the greatest sins; so there's no way the Quran would call Trinitarian Christians as "People of the Book", this latter refers to Jews and to Non-Trinitarian Christians.


Its called Unitarian Christianity.



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05 Nov 2015, 4:53 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
You made a lot of good comments on the first page and it pretty well matches what I've seen as well. I also had the chance to read Reza's book and it helped to clarify that the Christianity of James was a different thing from that of John and Paul.

Another thing that seems likely - John and Paul may have had a lot to do with astrotheologizing of Jesus in the sense of the solar logos symbolism. The astrotheological thread seems to run firmly through the Torah, major and minor prophets, and it was perhaps the Hellenistic Jews who recaptured the life and works of Jesus into that framework.


I should add that my point about the Resurrection. In that all Gospels/Sects mention it, but the accounts can be quite different an even contradictory.



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05 Nov 2015, 4:56 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
Fnord, if you're not going to contribute to this discussion in a meaningful, productive way, and you don't have anything to meaningful to say, I suggest you stop wasting your time and stop trying to get off topic and insult my faith.... what exactly do you plan to achieve by insulting my faith, anyway????!???? you're just going to make me more defensive and MORE assured of my beliefs... so, what up?


You have to take the rough with the smooth you can't deny there is primitive stuff in the Old Testament and Quran.



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05 Nov 2015, 5:04 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
I could imagine the Gospels being a corrupted text, but not the Torah or the Qur'an.... In Judaism, they are not even allowed to change a single LETTER of the Torah.... and same with the Qur'an


You have to understand the Gospels were word of mouth account that were put to paper in the the first century.

Also the Torah is a also similar it is like a folklore book.

http://www.bluethread.com/whowrotetorah.htm

Quote:
Our tradition is that Moses wrote (or received) the entire Torah. However, scholars going back to the 2nd century CE, or for an example in medieval times, Ibn Ezra in the 12th century, found troubling evidence that Moses did not in fact write the Torah. For example, there are references in the Torah to Moses in the third person, such as his being modest, or naming Edomite kings (Gen. 36) that were known to have lived after Moses died.[Friedman, p. 19.] Subsequent scholars found more and more problems that suggested more than one source. Early in Exodus, for instance, 6:3 (P) and 3:14 (E), it is stated that the personal name of Yod-He-Vav-He was not employed prior to Moses. [Speiser, Genesis p. xxiii], even though that name permeates the book of Genesis. ...


Also the archaeological record is Judiasm became more concrete as an ideology. So in it evolved from other culture an the doctrine changed.



Last edited by 0_equals_true on 05 Nov 2015, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Nov 2015, 5:06 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
except I think ahmadiyya dont hold this view, saying that previous prophets had seperate laws and that muhammad was the final law bearing prophet but there are more prophets to come who will revive the faith, such as mirza ghulam ahmed (or at least the qadianis say he is a prophet, the lahoris say he is the just the messiah). is there any proof that the Torah has been altered or misinterpreted?


Ahmadiyya are good because they reject violence.



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05 Nov 2015, 5:12 pm

violence is sometimes necessary to protect yourself and your people..... the ahmadiyya are being badly persecuted and killed all around the world, and what they fail to understand is, if they are a "caliphate" then they have to fight against these Muslim extremists.... and while they're at it they should go rescue the Muslims in burma.....



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05 Nov 2015, 5:41 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
violence is sometimes necessary to protect yourself and your people..... the ahmadiyya are being badly persecuted and killed all around the world, and what they fail to understand is, if they are a "caliphate" then they have to fight against these Muslim extremists.... and while they're at it they should go rescue the Muslims in burma.....


Jesus shared this pacifism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Ahmadiyya are being persecuted by other Muslims, not Christians or Jews. In Pakistan they aren't even recognized as Muslims.

An Ahmadi mosque was one of the first mosques in the london. They are well respected.

Ahmadiyya also consider self defense as a last resort.



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05 Nov 2015, 5:44 pm

I never said ahmadiyya are persecuted by jews and christians, far from it.... i agree that muslims are to blame for the persecution of ahmadiyya in their countries, all im saying is, if the ahmadis really believed in self defense as a last resort, they would FIGHT.



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05 Nov 2015, 6:07 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
I never said ahmadiyya are persecuted by jews and christians, far from it.... i agree that muslims are to blame for the persecution of ahmadiyya in their countries, all im saying is, if the ahmadis really believed in self defense as a last resort, they would FIGHT.


How do you expect them to fight? they are a minority in Pakistan. They have already relocated their headquarters to London.

Also just look at what happens when zealots take thing into their own hands in Pakistan.

They are preventing more violence an persecution by not fighting. There is such a thing as rational pacifism. Self defense is not just about physical fighting it about being smart.

You can be "righteous" and dead and your demographic wiped out, or you can emancipate yourself by slowly enacting change.

The misery in the Middle East is cause by such an simplistic mindset.

Often the people that act in "defense" are those that believe they are victim regardless of if they are actually victims.

My attitude on victimhood is this: Even people who are oppressed should savour every moment they are not being actively oppressed. The way to be free is to refuse to be a victim in your mind, whereas culture of victimhood can persist long after the oppressor is remove.

This means in practice, as much as possible trying to get on with normal life as well as taking a principled stance.



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05 Nov 2015, 6:29 pm

I guess your right, 0___ equals___true..... still, I think the ahmadi "caliphate" should fight against the burmese...



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05 Nov 2015, 6:52 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
I guess your right, 0___ equals___true..... still, I think the ahmadi "caliphate" should fight against the burmese...

They have no background in the region. You are assuming the Sunnis groups would be happy with this. Jahadis have operated in the region for some time. It hasn't helped, in fact you can argue it has made thing worse for the ordinary populace who weren't separatist just getting on with their lives.

How about Malaysia / Indonesia actually acknowledge these refugees?

It is naive to think you can always use violence to make things better. Burma was under sanction for some year, these problem occurred as they were loosened.



Last edited by 0_equals_true on 05 Nov 2015, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.