What can we do about the high male suicide rate?

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One of the things that I'm really pessimistic about our ability to deconstruct at all is the gender-driven behavior. Guys can tell women "Oh don't worry - leave the make-up! Dress in baggy clothes if you want! Don't worry so much about your weight - you're beautiful just the way you are!" and then watch them act like perfect hypocrites and go for, all other things equal, the slender, well dressed, and highly groomed choice. Similarly women telling men that it's okay to cry, that they like men who show their feelings, that they're not into macho - watch what they say, watch then what they do, and see the difference.

We have hundreds of thousands of years, really millions if you want to get down to it, of having our attraction set in what we'd think of today as very draconian and eugenic ways. The dating world is so judgmental, so picayune, so personal-merit resistant (ie. the girls and guys who get the girls and guys have a huge range of misconduct allowed - for those outside of that perfection wouldn't be enough) because it's not about who has themselves together and who doesn't - it's about who our animal instincts find as desirable mates. That may or may not even conform particularly well to what an expert in molecular biology would offer as ideal, notwithstanding this is our internal radar and most men or women cannot break it - usually if they try on a partner they're only intellectually or emotionally attracted to it's an adventure where they realize they can't overcome the physical repulsion, feel awful because they liked the person enough to try that to begin with, and from then on they get it - biology generally trumps psychology or conscious intent on this.


What we're far better off doing as far as I can tell is working to cultivate meaning for everyone that's not in that niche group of men or women that everyone wants to shag. You'd also want to build equal amounts of meaning for those outside that similar but not always 1:1 with the first group - the people that everyone wants to hire.

I have no proof whatsoever for this but I can't help but think out loud, shooting from the hip here, that nihilism is what's gnawing at the base for a lot of these people. The kinds of abuse that it takes to bend, break, and remold a man or woman into what our society calls ideal almost demands some quantity of the fairy-tales that we're fed as children actually coming true or at least having a dignified place for as many people as possible.

If we were to take a particularly secular road - we'd want to look to neurology and see if we could make something like a secular version of the old mysteries. Something that gives people an ability to work toward virtues and talents, enjoy those virtues and talents, and being seen as on the path to further enriching society by their membership in it. A guy or girl who isn't doing anything with their lives that defines them first, in our culture as it is, generally gets defined by what they look like on first impression - if things aren't going particularly well in their lives already that's yet another strike against them and their faith in what the world will let them be or what they have the options to be.

Even just getting past the suicide issue - as capitalism keeps going toward it's own sort of singularity (ie. a full booming economy with almost full human unemployment) we'll have to remodel our society and come up with civic organizations that will keep us in some sort of regimented, disciplined, and adult-cultivating pathway. Otherwise it's a massive proliferation of Kids and Harry Brown, or really even Mad Max when it comes down to it.

When I've gotten close to such an act, it has been due to emotional distress from romantic failure, or general despair at the cruel, dismal futility of it all.

I think we have an economic system that is failing people in any number of ways.

I think, of those people, men are more likely to internalise that failure in a way that strikes at their sense of identity. This is, at least in part, because this of how men are addressed and what is expected of them. So firstly, I think there needs to be a wider understanding that 1) we live within an economic system and 2) that system often fails those within it.

I also think there are gender-specific myths that, though eroding, still hold us in their thrall. Men tell stories about/to themselves, the various sentimental fantasies of what it is to 'be a man'. I think we need better myths, and better stories to tell about ourselves.

My ideal would be to move away from notions of 'men' (and 'women') to grown-ups. I don't see many grown-ups around so much as overgrown kids who occasionally play-act at being grown-ups. Further, amour de soi vs amour-propre.

I actually think forcing this concept on people contributes to it, not help. The more we force the idea that men and women are the same, the harder it will become for the many men that reject said idea as they see the world around them descend into androgyny. Men and women are not the same. Maybe not all men have this perspective. I support their right to tend towards behavioral androgyny if they want. I do not want. I know many other men do not want. Let those men be men without some new social laws telling us it's somehow wrong. I know this very issue and similar concepts of forced thought have caused me to contemplate suicide a number of times.

And what makes someone a "grown-up" in your mind? I don't speak French, so I have no idea what you mean.

I think you hit the nail on the head between the difference in male and female suicide. I don't have statistics in front of me; but from a class I took for work a few months ago on this topic, the female population had a higher rate of attempts (in the U.S.); the male population had a higher rate of success. Due to methods typically used by women vs. by men--and mindset as well.

When I sought treatment for depression a few yrs ago, I couldn't believe the amount of time the dr spent "educating" my husband about removing anything potentially lethal from the house. His response was, "not that I don't care...but if she wanted to do something, she would have done it." That was how I felt about it. If I had wanted to die, I would not have been seeking help. I would have just done something final. I guess I thought more like a guy than a girl in that department--after learning a bit about the differences in typical suicide attempts between males and females I now understand why she concentrated her educational endeavors as she did.

I think the key is to understand the mechanism behind it and work toward correcting that. And to stop belittling men and manly things as a society. After listening to my husband's 2 cents on men and feelings, I no longer think that men don't feel. They feel things very deeply. But they also don't show them in the same way, which leads women to misunderstand. Sometimes similarly to the misunderstandings between aspies and NTs.

I don't know if this really is helpful, but my 2 cents on the matter.

Spot on!

First, we're taught from childhood that showing any emotion other than joy is "unmanly". Then we're taught that showing joy for anyone other than our girlfriends or wives is "cheating". Finally, we're criticized for "not being aware" of our emotional states!

So we develop our own ways of expressing our emotions in "acceptable" ways. When we're angry, we work ourselves to death. When we're sad, we say we're "not feeling well" and keep on working. When we're lonely, we make sexual advances toward our wives. When we feel rejected, we withdraw - no one cares anyway.

Joy, work, affection ... that's about all that is considered "manly" these days. No wonder men occasionally "cut loose" with bizarre behavior ...

beakybird

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amour_de_soi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amour-propre

I didn't mean doing away with notions of 'man' and 'woman' (I don't know if such a thing is possible, and attempts to do so are riddled with conceptual problems) so much as moving away from the present concepts of these notions, riddled as they are with impossible contradictions, and from an emphasis on disparity.

As an aside, I think men and women tend toward a middle ground, being a mix of masculine and feminine. Men and women who behave in a strongly (respectively) masculine/feminine way often seem like parodies. Indeed, such figures are often used or evoked for the purpose of parody.

I always try and build things from the ground up, rather than impose them from the top down. I would rather we had a broad ground, allowing people to be how they are, rather than (top-down) telling them how they should be, trying to make them conform to a particular concept. I would like a society and culture that is easygoing and that didn't feel a need to sort and label and categorise.

At the moment I see a proliferation of categories ('let a thousand prefixes bloom!'). While this is an attempt to make other ways of being recognised, I think it ultimately undermines itself by reinforcing the notion that categories are necessary. Further, I think it is all too easy to label ourselves into a corner, to become trapped in how we think we ought to be.

I had what seems like an opposite issue to you. I've never felt particularly 'macho' masculine, never really 'got' it. I saw the masculinities around me (as I still do), and understood I was supposed to connect with them, they were supposed to make sense or appeal to me, but they didn't in the slightest. I also understood this was a failure on my part, and that there was something wrong with me (to be clear, I don't mean 'understood' like 'agreed', but that the implicit message was I was at fault, not the masculinity on display).

For a while, in a silly binary logic way, I wondered if I was transsexual. If I would 'get' being a woman in a way I didn't being a man. I came to see how absurd this was, and eventually realised I didn't need to 'be' a man, as I was a man. Ground-up, rather than top-down.

As to 'grown-up', it's always my maternal grandparents who come to mind. Mostly it's a self-confidence justified by capability, but also that won't get ego-bruised if help or advice is needed. Calm, patient, with no heed paid to 'winning', and what heed is paid to social judgement is based on one's integrity, not one's socio-economic achievement or material possessions.

I see something immature in a person who overly identifies with what they are supposed (in many senses of that word) to be.

I think a society or culture that tries to fix whatever is causing this suicide rate/disparity (and again, there will be myriad causes) without also fixing itself is only setting up problems for later on.

Suicide is mostly related to social and financial problems. Also drug abuse but that by itself is often the result of the former. It's interesting because humans are the only species to commit suicide. Makes it easier to look for possible causes though. To survive you need money, which is hard to come by without either working very hard or taking the criminal route which is arguably even harder. Some people don't have the luxury to make those choices and others can't even be bothered doing all that just to survive. It's a simple solution to a simple problem really.

The alternative? End overpopulation/corruption/exploitation/capitalism. Good luck with that though. Personally I think the situation is fine right now. Not good, not bad, just fine. It's a natural reaction to a natural situation anyway.

That's not true. Maybe for the women you know. The men I know do not understand nor communicate their feelings. I know this, because that's what I've been told, by the men I'm talking about.

I actually would prefer that men talk about their feelings, but it's like pulling teeth. When I ask questions, the response I get is "I don't know." It takes forever to even get any kind of answer.

All women aren't evil harpies determined to use men for their money and then keep them whipped for the rest of their lives. I don't ever belittle men's feelings. Stop using your own personal negative experiences to make judgements against all women.

There are many reasons why this is but that's not as important and as what we can do about it. I do agree that I think it is probably an inability or unwillingness to express themselves in ways that make them feel vulnerable and weak, there is a lot of expectations put on men and I think not being to live up to them as most can't is deeply painful.

Regarding feelings there are a lot of 'seems' in these theories. I'm naturally skeptical when people talk about subjective experiences or perceptions.

We are assuming simply talking about feelings is something that would help these people.

In a suicidal episode a person may deliberately avoid help at that stage anyway.

The key word is episode. From my knowledge of depression and suicidal ideation (I hate that word), reasonably happy people can kill themselves becuase of a suicidal episodes. It is like a microcosm, where they are difficult to reach. Other people may be more situationally depressed.

I had an Uncle that committed suicide,no one saw it coming.He was a very jovial man,quick with a laugh or joke.He had injured his back at work and was on strong pain meds and unable to return to the job.One night he ate a bullet in the bedroom.Im guessing he felt since he could no longer work and provide for his family that he was less of a man and had no value.He was worth more than his accomplishments,but he grew up in an era where a man was judged on how he could provide for his family.He was a good provider,raised three kids,a good husband and provider.When he lost the ability to work he also lost his will to live.None of us would have felt less of him if he had to take an early retirement.
I hope that mothers today will tell their sons it's ok to be sad,ok to cry.You are human and that's what happens.
I told my boy it was ok,I've seen him cry as a grown man.Nothing to feel unmanly about.We all have emotions.
I was thinking about my ex and this subject and realized I only saw him cry once in twenty years of marriage,when he talked about the death of his mother.He also grew up with the notion that strong men don't cry and to stuff all those negative feelings away deep inside.
I had a friend visit with her son when the kids were little and we all took them down to the creek.It has a gravel bank and of course my kids were used to running on it barefoot.Her son wasn't and the gravel hurt his feet.He started to cry about it and she berated him for being a wussy.Said no son of hers was going to grow up to be a whiner.I thought she was very cruel,of course the gravel hurt his feet,he always wore shoes.He was just a child in pain and she made him feel like s**t about it.Later on as a teen she had all sorts of difficulties with him,she brought it all on herself.The only way he could show his feelings was by acting out.

Take a long term approach, fix it the same way most societal problems are remedied, break the cycle through education.
Start in the early years, teach children to communicate, promote emotional health alongside physical health.
(not as simplistic as making it okay for boys to cry, as crying is in the same category as anger, they both indicate a lack of emotional regulation.) Addressing the issue in late teens/early adulthood is not going to be effective as a long term solution.

Its effectiveness could be on par with using education to break the cycle of poverty/disadvantage, essentially early intervention with parental education, taking account of the development in context/Ecological systems theory.
The early years of a child’s life are widely recognised as the foundation for all that follows, due to the connections being made between brain cells (especially in the first three years). It makes sense to address wider societal issues at this age, but it requires a shift in how the society values early experiences.

Different people are associated with this quote, but it has been a consistently accurate human observation:

I think underlying unexpressed anger and resentment is sometimes the cause of suicide. I have experienced suicidal thoughts before and they can be very violent almost like violence turned inwards. It depends there are different types of suicide. Some are hopeless others are anxious. Akathisia can increase the risk of suicide for some people. I always bring this up when I can. It's caused by certain antipsychotics and some other psych medications.

Men are in a difficult situation. It's becoming more and more acceptable to cry but I actually feel like women sometimes get away more with anger (at least in my mind I cut women more slack than men). Others may do the exact opposite but there can be a double standard.

Number one thing we can do: stop circumcision of infants. Stop barbaric treatment of children in general.

Unfortunately, I know a woman who attempted to commit suicide five times, and succeeded once.

The man I knew who committed suicide refused all help. He told me several times that he was going to kill himself. I called the police (we were no longer on good terms with each other). The police did nothing. He lied to them when they came to the door, and acted like I was crazy and making things up. This happened at least twice that I remember.

I called his family. Even though he had attempted it years before, they didn't take me seriously. He lied to them and acted like he was fine. I called several times. No one attempted to get him help. I had no legal way to force him to get help, and no one believed me.

One day they found him dead.

He only told me, for whatever reason, and refused help.

I'll let you in on a little secret. We say "I don't know" to such questions because (1) women who believe that we don't understand our own feelings will also believe that we are ignorant about our own feelings; and (2) it's easier to say "I don't know" and be left alone than trying to explain what we're feeling and why we feel that way to someone who is likely to dismiss our feelings and/or make us feel stupid and childish for what we feel.

Men generally don't feel comfortable discussing their feelings with people who have shown indifference or contempt for their feelings, or with people who seem a little too interested in their feelings. So if the men in your life don't want to discuss their feeling with you, then you may want to look to yourself to find the reasons why.

Last edited by Fnord on 05 Feb 2016, 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.