Why are children valued?

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Sweetleaf
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10 Feb 2016, 11:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Our culture does not value children, look at how we treat them. Immediately millions of their peers have been murdered before they ever have a chance to born and have their body parts sold to the highest bidder, we send to them glorified daycares/internment camps that we call schools that prepare them for institutionalization, we saddle them with 6 figures of debt for degrees that won't get them jobs, we send children to war to fight the children of other countries but don't even let them play outside here anymore. The only kids I see outside are Mexicans, Americans are so paranoid that they essentially keep their children prisoners in their own home with the GMO pack processed poison prison food. It is the boomers and old folks that have hollowed out this country, they simply aren't dying fast enough and racked up huge entitlements that the youth of today aren't even allowed to dream about have but are going to be counted on to support, it is these boomers that support that most repressive corrupt politicians and policies in this country too.

The exact problem with our culture is that we don't value children or human life at all, self absorbed in our own worlds with our own problems. Why do you think middle aged white people have seen such a decrease in their quality of life, why are there all these middle aged lost souls? It's because the American family has been destroyed; getting a job, settling down, getting married, owning house, having 2.5 kids, retirement, you are lucky if you get any of those things now. The American Dream is DEAD!

Sorry but abortion isn't defined as murder in any sense of the word....of course sometimes people bring up late term abortions but those are only legal in medical emergencies pretty sure. Its not murder to stop a clump of cells becoming a human being via removal from person who wants cells growing inside them removed. I myself certainly wouldn't agree with widespread late term abortion, if I got pregnant and didn't take a plan B pill soon enough I'd have an abortion ASAP.

Some people care more about unborn potential human beings(no saying it would even actually go on to survive and mature since a miscarriage is just as likely) than they do about the people already here.

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Sweetleaf
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10 Feb 2016, 11:05 pm

Hopper wrote:

I think procreation is valued. I think it's valued because it gives some sense of meaning to all this.

I don't think children are valued (though some confuse sentimental projection with valuing), as I don't think people are. They also provide a handy excuse to do terrible, stupid things - 'we've got to do X, because of the children'.

Good point, seems there are plenty who care more about procreation and how its 'the only thing sex is for' than they care about children that can result.

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Kraichgauer
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11 Feb 2016, 1:58 am

Well, I value my daughter simply because my wife and I love her, and because she still can't fend for herself without someone looking out for her. She's a piece of both my wife and I, as a living, breathing human being.

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Rollo
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11 Feb 2016, 3:04 am

androbot01 wrote:

I also can't help but think what a much more pleasant world it would be if we weren't so bottom heavy with children. Western society worships youth like it's a cult.

Is your second sentence above supposed to be linked in some way to the first?

Western societies have the lowest birthrates on the planet. Far from worshipping youth, what Western societies really value (or have been conditioned to value) is career-chasing childlessness, abortion and homosexuality. If there is some sort of cult on youth in modern Western societies it only exists in as far as our elites can use the young (in their ignorance) against their elders. I could say more, but since there is no free speech on this board, I won't bother.

If you think there are too many people on this planet, try focusing on the Third World instead.

androbot01
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11 Feb 2016, 3:28 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

I think there are times when children can mature people.

It might mature some people in some ways, but I don't think that's a good reason to have children.

Jacoby wrote:

...millions of their peers have been murdered before they ever have a chance to born and have their body parts sold to the highest bidder

Abortion is one of the most responsible actions a person can take.

Jacoby wrote:

...we send to them glorified daycares/internment camps that we call schools that prepare them for institutionalization

True.

Jacoby wrote:

The exact problem with our culture is that we don't value children or human life at all, self absorbed in our own worlds with our own problems.

And we certainly have enough of them. No reason to bring anybody else into the world.

Rollo wrote:

If you think there are too many people on this planet, try focusing on the Third World instead.

I'm talking about children in general. Although people in the third world are more dependent on their children to take care of them, so it makes sense for them to have them. In the western world, we are no longer dependent on children to take care of the elderly.

btbnnyr
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11 Feb 2016, 4:07 am

Is it value or fake value?
It seems that people value their own children, but not so much the children of others.

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Hopper
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11 Feb 2016, 5:17 am

Rollo wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

I also can't help but think what a much more pleasant world it would be if we weren't so bottom heavy with children. Western society worships youth like it's a cult.

And you'd have western societies conditioned to be against those things?

Western culture does worship youth, as an abstract concept/ideal. It does not worship the young, except insofar as they possess 'youth', though it also resents them for having the temerity to be youthful. The model here is those elders you mention having 'youth'.

Given you've already done (albeit with an impressively light touch) sexism, homophobia and racism, I wonder what else you had in mind that the lack of 'free speech' holds you back on. Though please don't feel obliged to clarify.

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AusWolf
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11 Feb 2016, 5:59 am

Feyokien wrote:

C2V wrote:

Quote:

Because they're the future, the only true end goal of life before you die

What does this mean? That the only fulfilling thing in life you can ever do is have kids ???

From a human standpoint no, there are plenty of worthwhile things to do with ones life. From an objective biological standpoint...yes.

What else is there to fulfill your life with than a human standpoint? I don't think biology has "demands" as to how I can be fulfilled, or at least I don't feel it.

Feyokien
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11 Feb 2016, 12:02 pm

AusWolf wrote:

Feyokien wrote:

C2V wrote:

Quote:

Because they're the future, the only true end goal of life before you die

What does this mean? That the only fulfilling thing in life you can ever do is have kids ???

From a human standpoint no, there are plenty of worthwhile things to do with ones life. From an objective biological standpoint...yes.

What else is there to fulfill your life with than a human standpoint? I don't think biology has "demands" as to how I can be fulfilled, or at least I don't feel it.

The human standpoint is our own construction in our conscious minds. What we choose. The biological standpoint is our instinctual drives. It might not be as apparent in humans, but look at any other animal and the purpose becomes starkly clear. Surviving and the gathering resources with the end goal of raising offspring.

AusWolf
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12 Feb 2016, 4:35 pm

Feyokien wrote:

AusWolf wrote:

Feyokien wrote:

C2V wrote:

Quote:

Because they're the future, the only true end goal of life before you die

What does this mean? That the only fulfilling thing in life you can ever do is have kids ???

From a human standpoint no, there are plenty of worthwhile things to do with ones life. From an objective biological standpoint...yes.

What else is there to fulfill your life with than a human standpoint? I don't think biology has "demands" as to how I can be fulfilled, or at least I don't feel it.

That's the point! Those are other animals. As I apparently have no instinctual drive to produce an offspring, I call the biological standpoint irrelevant in humans. We, both as individuals, and as a species, are way over all that "surviving and gathering resources" crap. You are you, and not what your biology teacher tells you.

LaetiBlabla
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12 Feb 2016, 4:49 pm

I think that children are not valued for what they are but because of what we give to them.
Parents give life, and they may give much more.

I think that, generally, the more you give to others, the more you value them.
This is also true for yourself: the more you give to yourself, the more you love yourself.

I think that in order to love life, you should give first to yourself and then give yourself to others.
Easier to say than to do but very efficient.

androbot01
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12 Feb 2016, 5:09 pm

LaetiBlabla wrote:

I think that, generally, the more you give to others, the more you value them.
This is also true for yourself: the more you give to yourself, the more you love yourself.

I agree with this ^

But this:

Quote:

I think that children are not valued for what they are but because of what we give to them.

brings into question what we are giving to children by bringing them into the world. And further, if this is of value. I think life has value dependent on the quality of life. The show of valuing life by quantity of people devalues life itself. The experience becomes unpleasant.

LaetiBlabla
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13 Feb 2016, 4:40 am

^^
About quantity... When you want to give, indeed, quality rather than quantity makes sense.

But i don't think that future parents want children "to give" at the start. They want to "owe".

I think that there is this illusion that you "owe" your children, because children are at the beginning parts of their parents and depend on them, which give the parents a kind of "owing legitimate power".

But i think the real power of parents (or anyone) is to give (which parents slowly or quickly learn).

nerdygirl
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13 Feb 2016, 5:52 am

androbot01 wrote:

In the western world, we are no longer dependent on children to take care of the elderly.

Ummm, yes we are. Social security depends on the younger people who are working and putting money into the system. Part of the problem with social security is that the numbers of workers is lower than estimated, due to lower birth rates.

Nursing homes and such are dependent on younger people who are working to take care of the patients.

Who are the workers but the children and grandchildren of the elderly. Obviously, I am not talking specific family lines, but of generations as a whole.

Those of you who despise children, when you grow up you're going to be thankful that someone else had children so that you actually have someone to care for you when you are all alone withering away in a nursing home. Too bad you won't have anyone to visit because all your friends and maybe your spouse will either be dead or too frail themselves to come see you.

androbot01
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13 Feb 2016, 7:38 am

nerdygirl wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

In the western world, we are no longer dependent on children to take care of the elderly.

Social security depends on the younger people who are working and putting money into the system. Part of the problem with social security is that the numbers of workers is lower than estimated, due to lower birth rates.

As the birth rate declines and the older generation dies off, a balance will be restored.

Quote:

Nursing homes and such are dependent on younger people who are working to take care of the patients.

This may change as technology and robotics become more widely used.

Quote:

Those of you who despise children,

Who said they despised children?

Quote:

...when you grow up you're going to be thankful that someone else had children so that you actually have someone to care for you when you are all alone withering away in a nursing home.

I'd rather skip the nursing warehouse; longevity is over-rated.

Quote:

Too bad you won't have anyone to visit because all your friends and maybe your spouse will either be dead or too frail themselves to come see you.

Aw, that's touching.

I can't help but notice that the reasons you've cited for having children are all selfish ones. Is having someone bring you flowers while you're dying in a warehouse for the elderly really worth bringing a life into the world?

naturalplastic
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13 Feb 2016, 8:01 am

Birth rates are falling even in the third world.

And in industrialized countries birth rates are rapidly approaching, have reached, or have even already dropped below, replacement rate.

So parenthood is not as "common" as it once was.

Its gonna take time but by the end of the century the world population will probably top off, and start to go down by about the same rate that is rising now.

So you (the OP) are kind of kicking a dead horse. Your ideal of fewer children being born is pretty much already reality.

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