Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Islam & the Future of Tolerance - Maajid Nawaz & Sam Harris

Page 2 of 3 [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

18 Feb 2016, 10:46 pm

Fugu wrote:
marshall wrote:
In the Muslim world intellectual attack on Islam is equated as a form of treason. To them you're not attacking an idea but an entire people. That's the real problem with Islam right now.
you realize that Judaism has pretty much the same strictures as Islam does w/r/t depictions of gods/holy people etc. so your 'problem with Islam' is that you've no understanding of what idolatry is under Islam. It's about the same as a strict Christian taking the "lord's name in vain" to depict YHWH/muhammed in an actual form.

True, but that has no relevance to anything. The issue is the idea that blasphemy should be PUNISHED through legal or vigilante action. In the 21st century, Christians and Jews do not want enforce religious decrees on the general populous. They leave it to their god to sort such transgressions out. A certain subset of Muslims do not.

A certain subset of Muslims believe humans should enforce laws against blasphemy. They don't believe in religious plurality or freedom of speech, period. They also want special privileges for Islam above other religions (because their religion is the "One True Religion"(TM) - it never crosses their mind that pretty much all other religions believe the same - or that they have absolutely no f*****g proof).

Again, it isn't all Muslims who think this way, but it's a big enough chunk of them. It's not merely a "tiny minority" that have problematic beliefs.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

18 Feb 2016, 10:56 pm

AspE wrote:
Fugu wrote:
you realize that Judaism has pretty much the same strictures as Islam does w/r/t depictions of gods/holy people etc. so your 'problem with Islam' is that you've no understanding of what idolatry is under Islam. It's about the same as a strict Christian taking the "lord's name in vain" to depict YHWH/muhammed in an actual form.

You're not helping the argument any. Judaism can be just as abhorrent as Islam. It's all the same disease of faith. But the Qur'an is a bit more violent and intolerant of criticism.

I'm not very knowledgeable on Judaism, but the Christian The Old Testament certainly has just as much horror as the Quran. It's just more scattered. I think the main difference is the Quran is pretty much a single book. The Bible is a whole collection of books with many somewhat contradictory statements. Pretty sure the same is true of the Torah. There's a lot more room for cherry picking than there is in the Quran.



Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

18 Feb 2016, 11:09 pm

marshall wrote:
Fugu wrote:
marshall wrote:
In the Muslim world intellectual attack on Islam is equated as a form of treason. To them you're not attacking an idea but an entire people. That's the real problem with Islam right now.
you realize that Judaism has pretty much the same strictures as Islam does w/r/t depictions of gods/holy people etc. so your 'problem with Islam' is that you've no understanding of what idolatry is under Islam. It's about the same as a strict Christian taking the "lord's name in vain" to depict YHWH/muhammed in an actual form.

True, but that has no relevance to anything. The issue is the idea that blasphemy should be PUNISHED through legal or vigilante action. In the 21st century, Christians and Jews do not want enforce religious decrees on the general populous. They leave it to their god to sort such transgressions out. A certain subset of Muslims do not.

A certain subset of Muslims believe humans should enforce laws against blasphemy. They don't believe in religious plurality or freedom of speech, period. They also want special privileges for Islam above other religions (because their religion is the "One True Religion"(TM) - it never crosses their mind that pretty much all other religions believe the same - or that they have absolutely no f*****g proof).

Again, it isn't all Muslims who think this way, but it's a big enough chunk of them. It's not merely a "tiny minority" that have problematic beliefs.

it's an extremist set, and most of the countries with heavy muslim populations oppose Daesh.
Jacoby likes to squawk about how muslims will take over, but there is no chance of that happening, there's not enough of them to accomplish it.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... -for-isis/

also there are still Christian terrorists in the us. not all Christians think that way either, but it's a big enough chunk of them.



Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

18 Feb 2016, 11:13 pm

marshall wrote:
AspE wrote:
Fugu wrote:
you realize that Judaism has pretty much the same strictures as Islam does w/r/t depictions of gods/holy people etc. so your 'problem with Islam' is that you've no understanding of what idolatry is under Islam. It's about the same as a strict Christian taking the "lord's name in vain" to depict YHWH/muhammed in an actual form.

You're not helping the argument any. Judaism can be just as abhorrent as Islam. It's all the same disease of faith. But the Qur'an is a bit more violent and intolerant of criticism.

I'm not very knowledgeable on Judaism, but the Christian The Old Testament certainly has just as much horror as the Quran. It's just more scattered. I think the main difference is the Quran is pretty much a single book. The Bible is a whole collection of books with many somewhat contradictory statements. Pretty sure the same is true of the Torah. There's a lot more room for cherry picking than there is in the Quran.
Mainly the difference between Judaism and Islam(aside from the texts) is that the Jewish religious leaders are known for being Rules Lawyers and thus most of the rules have workarounds. Islam doesn't share this as far as i'm aware.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

18 Feb 2016, 11:37 pm

Fugu wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fugu wrote:
marshall wrote:
In the Muslim world intellectual attack on Islam is equated as a form of treason. To them you're not attacking an idea but an entire people. That's the real problem with Islam right now.
you realize that Judaism has pretty much the same strictures as Islam does w/r/t depictions of gods/holy people etc. so your 'problem with Islam' is that you've no understanding of what idolatry is under Islam. It's about the same as a strict Christian taking the "lord's name in vain" to depict YHWH/muhammed in an actual form.

True, but that has no relevance to anything. The issue is the idea that blasphemy should be PUNISHED through legal or vigilante action. In the 21st century, Christians and Jews do not want enforce religious decrees on the general populous. They leave it to their god to sort such transgressions out. A certain subset of Muslims do not.

A certain subset of Muslims believe humans should enforce laws against blasphemy. They don't believe in religious plurality or freedom of speech, period. They also want special privileges for Islam above other religions (because their religion is the "One True Religion"(TM) - it never crosses their mind that pretty much all other religions believe the same - or that they have absolutely no f*****g proof).

Again, it isn't all Muslims who think this way, but it's a big enough chunk of them. It's not merely a "tiny minority" that have problematic beliefs.

it's an extremist set, and most of the countries with heavy muslim populations oppose Daesh.
Jacoby likes to squawk about how muslims will take over, but there is no chance of that happening, there's not enough of them to accomplish it.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... -for-isis/

also there are still Christian terrorists in the us. not all Christians think that way either, but it's a big enough chunk of them.


Again stop putting words in my mouth, I oppose mass migration from Muslim countries because I do not believe that enough of them can actually integrate, their values run counter to ours, and the potential security threat which does exist whether you admit or not. Europe has a very big demographic problem and trying to solve it with Muslim immigrants will not work just as it will not work in United States with Mexican and Central American immigrants, what you are doing is creating a division in the populace that has no chance being bridged and will lead our country down the path to ruin if we are to approach immigration from the standpoint of multiculturalism. I believe the melting pot, I believe in leaving your antiquated old world beliefs back home, your old nationality back home, we do not need any more hyphenated Americans. I don't know Europe economic situation but I do know that illegal immigration has ruined our cities and hurt the poorest people in this country, I do not believe it has been a net positive and the information that would illustrate this censored and buried.

There was a time when the idea that there could be another civil war in America or Europe was unfathomable, I don't think it is anymore.



Last edited by Jacoby on 18 Feb 2016, 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

18 Feb 2016, 11:37 pm

CAPTCHA BS



Last edited by marshall on 18 Feb 2016, 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

18 Feb 2016, 11:39 pm

Fugu wrote:
marshall wrote:
AspE wrote:
Fugu wrote:
you realize that Judaism has pretty much the same strictures as Islam does w/r/t depictions of gods/holy people etc. so your 'problem with Islam' is that you've no understanding of what idolatry is under Islam. It's about the same as a strict Christian taking the "lord's name in vain" to depict YHWH/muhammed in an actual form.

You're not helping the argument any. Judaism can be just as abhorrent as Islam. It's all the same disease of faith. But the Qur'an is a bit more violent and intolerant of criticism.

I'm not very knowledgeable on Judaism, but the Christian The Old Testament certainly has just as much horror as the Quran. It's just more scattered. I think the main difference is the Quran is pretty much a single book. The Bible is a whole collection of books with many somewhat contradictory statements. Pretty sure the same is true of the Torah. There's a lot more room for cherry picking than there is in the Quran.
Mainly the difference between Judaism and Islam(aside from the texts) is that the Jewish religious leaders are known for being Rules Lawyers and thus most of the rules have workarounds. Islam doesn't share this as far as i'm aware.

You are over-simplifying. The problem is ISIS are just the very worst-of-the-worst. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda disapprove of ISIS. There is a whole gradient of belief sets, and there are many Muslims who are not supportive of terrorism or violence, yet still support some form of political Islam which is at odds with pluralistic society and secular governance. I don't have the energy to dig up all the research, but I know it isn't that hard to find.



Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

18 Feb 2016, 11:40 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Again stop putting words in my mouth

ok
Jacoby wrote:
They are destabilizing our countries on purpose, they purposely want to divide and conquer us in the name globalism aka the New World Order.



Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

18 Feb 2016, 11:43 pm

marshall wrote:
You are over-simplifying. The problem is ISIS are just the very worst-of-the-worst. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda disapprove of ISIS. There is a whole gradient of belief sets, and there are many Muslims who are not supportive of terrorism or violence, yet still support some form of political Islam which is at odds with pluralistic society and secular governance. I don't have the energy to dig up all the research, but I know it isn't that hard to find.
I am aware of how bad daesh is, that's why they're being hunted right now by the US and a bunch of other countries. there is also a similar gradient within most religions. what's your point?

p.s. 'ISIS' is what they want you to call them. don't listen to them http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/why-isis-will-hate-it-if-we-start-calling-them-daesh--bkC822p_zl



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

18 Feb 2016, 11:53 pm

Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Again stop putting words in my mouth

ok
Jacoby wrote:
They are destabilizing our countries on purpose, they purposely want to divide and conquer us in the name globalism aka the New World Order.


Yes I believe transnational corporations, banks, and elements of our national government are working to create a one world government with the freedom and prosperity of the west being stripped away for a more authoritarian one more resembling the Chinese model. Liberal democracy is not the end of history, it is not governments final form and if we do not stand up for ourselves then our democracy will be stolen away from us. Look at EU, ran by unelected bureaucrats, that is what is what the real "1%ers" want for the entire world. Our standard of living is unacceptable and in their eyes unsustainable so they will deconstruct our societies, these people think of us as "useless eaters" rather than human beings. Fascism, communism, capitalism, it's all the same to these people. That's why so much of this global warming stuff is garbage, it could be happening or maybe not but I do know that the fascists want to use it to gain control of our sovereign governments and economies.

Now where I say Muslims are taking over?



Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

18 Feb 2016, 11:55 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Again stop putting words in my mouth

ok
Jacoby wrote:
They are destabilizing our countries on purpose, they purposely want to divide and conquer us in the name globalism aka the New World Order.


Yes I believe transnational corporations, banks, and elements of our national government are working to create a one world government with the freedom and prosperity of the west being stripped away for a more authoritarian one more resembling the Chinese model. Liberal democracy is not the end of history, it is not governments final form and if we do not stand up for ourselves then our democracy will be stolen away from us. Look at EU, ran by unelected bureaucrats, that is what is what the real "1%ers" want for the entire world. Our standard of living is unacceptable and in their eyes unsustainable so they will deconstruct our societies, these people think of us as "useless eaters" rather than human beings. Fascism, communism, capitalism, it's all the same to these people.

Now where I say Muslims are taking over?


Jacoby wrote:
They are destabilizing our countries on purpose, they purposely want to divide and conquer us in the name globalism aka the New World Order.

con·quer
ˈkäNGkər/
verb
overcome and take control of (a place or people) by use of military force.
"the Magyars conquered Hungary in the Middle Ages"

so they want to destroy the western and then what? rule the wreckage? what proof do you have of this?



Last edited by Fugu on 19 Feb 2016, 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

18 Feb 2016, 11:58 pm

I'll give you a pass for just having poor reading comprehension but that doesn't say anything about Muslims taking over, I've explain myself at length more than once so if you are too obtuse and too much of a dullard to get then I can't help you.



Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

19 Feb 2016, 12:01 am

Jacoby wrote:
I'll give you a pass for just having poor reading comprehension but that doesn't say anything about Muslims taking over, I've explain myself at length more than once so if you are too obtuse and too much of a dullard to get then I can't help you.
oh fun. instead of proof you give me insults. how generous of you. :roll:



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

19 Feb 2016, 12:09 am

Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I'll give you a pass for just having poor reading comprehension but that doesn't say anything about Muslims taking over, I've explain myself at length more than once so if you are too obtuse and too much of a dullard to get then I can't help you.
oh fun. instead of proof you give me insults. how generous of you. :roll:

You edited your post for what it is worth, impressive speed given capatcha has been bending me over tonight. As for proof? Look all around, read the news, I can bring a horse to water but I can't make him drink, like I think Europe and the Middle East are a testament to what I am saying.

Quick question; do you support the idea of global governance, yes or no? This should illuminate some things.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

19 Feb 2016, 12:32 am

Fugu wrote:
marshall wrote:
You are over-simplifying. The problem is ISIS are just the very worst-of-the-worst. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda disapprove of ISIS. There is a whole gradient of belief sets, and there are many Muslims who are not supportive of terrorism or violence, yet still support some form of political Islam which is at odds with pluralistic society and secular governance. I don't have the energy to dig up all the research, but I know it isn't that hard to find.
I am aware of how bad daesh is, that's why they're being hunted right now by the US and a bunch of other countries. there is also a similar gradient within most religions. what's your point?

p.s. 'ISIS' is what they want you to call them. don't listen to them http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/why-isis-will-hate-it-if-we-start-calling-them-daesh--bkC822p_zl

Apparently I've been talking right passed you. My point is there are more unacceptable extremists out there than just daesh! It isn't JUST daesh that believes in stoning to death for "adultery" and other such travesties. There are even "mainstream" clerics that support crap like that!



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

19 Feb 2016, 1:45 am

Jacoby wrote:
Now where I say Muslims are taking over?

Jacoby wrote:
I'll give you a pass for just having poor reading comprehension but that doesn't say anything about Muslims taking over, I've explain myself at length more than once so if you are too obtuse and too much of a dullard to get then I can't help you.

... well...

Jacoby wrote:
We need people to move on from Islam to other religions or to atheism as I don't think Islam will ever become as ineffectual Christianity has in the west, if we're not mindful it will conquer Christianity in the west in the long run as they are the warrior religion not us. They are outbreeding us, it doesn't matter if it is a 100 or 200 years but Islam will conquer Europe just as it has every where else it has spread because eventually they will be the majority and what happens in every Muslim country that they have a majority in? History can turn on dime like that, what would the world look like Charles Martel lost the Battle of Tours? It's been close before.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=304884&p=6977550#p6977550

Seems a bit odd to call someone "obtuse" and "a dullard" when they are *accurately* describing your point of view. :shrug: