Are feminists liberals or extreme conservatives?

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AR15000
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21 Feb 2016, 6:13 pm

AJisHere wrote:
The number one mistake I see around here is the assumption that feminism is a single entity or a single philosophy, rather than a category of philosophies. You can have feminists who are liberals, conservatives, moderate or none of the above (e.g. me). You can even have those in the same group. There are an abundance of disagreements between certain schools of thought within feminism, some of them very deep; it's not in any way monolithic.

So the answer to the question is "Kind of."



That's true. Feminism is a fragmented ideology here in the West because most of the major battles for women's rights have already been won. And many millennial feminists are ideologues who are using feminism as social climbing strategy.



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22 Feb 2016, 1:12 am

AR15000 wrote:
That's true. Feminism is a fragmented ideology here in the West because most of the major battles for women's rights have already been won. And many millennial feminists are ideologues who are using feminism as social climbing strategy.


Not really, no.

Ideologies develop into different camps because as it turns out, people are individuals and have different ideas on how to do things and what things need to be done. If you're ever part of a movement where everyone agrees on everything that should be a huge red flag.


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AR15000
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22 Feb 2016, 2:45 am

AJisHere wrote:
AR15000 wrote:
That's true. Feminism is a fragmented ideology here in the West because most of the major battles for women's rights have already been won. And many millennial feminists are ideologues who are using feminism as social climbing strategy.


Not really, no.

Ideologies develop into different camps because as it turns out, people are individuals and have different ideas on how to do things and what things need to be done. If you're ever part of a movement where everyone agrees on everything that should be a huge red flag.



Well those differing factions are comprised of MORE than one individual. Given that there are thousands, perhaps even millions of feminists in this world, if each feminist had her own distinct idea of what feminism is and no one could agree with another on anything there would be no ideology or political movement.

You cannot get anything done if there isn't common ground among at least 2 and preferably far more individual people :!: Don't be ridiculous. Being part of a movement where everyone agrees is hardly a red flag, it's a green flag that means there is massive cooperation. When people are in agreement they effectively organize and take action and s**t gets done.



AR15000
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22 Feb 2016, 5:39 am

Edenthiel wrote:
AJisHere wrote:
The number one mistake I see around here is the assumption that feminism is a single entity or a single philosophy, rather than a category of philosophies. You can have feminists who are liberals, conservatives, moderate or none of the above (e.g. me). You can even have those in the same group. There are an abundance of disagreements between certain schools of thought within feminism, some of them very deep; it's not in any way monolithic.

So the answer to the question is "Kind of."

Sorta like asking if atheists are liberal or conservative when all the term means is, "do you believe in a god or gods", eh?


Because atheism has an undisputed definition: There exists no supernatural power(s) that govern the Universe in which we live. It is a religious belief and not a political ideology. Vive la difference.



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22 Feb 2016, 6:39 am

There's a lot of conjecture like op's towards "feminism" in the west, because many feminists, while opposed to traditional conservative/traditional ideas, they may oppose free expression when used in ways that they see as indirectly reinforcing societal norms that they're opposed to. Policing conduct that seems pretty benign to outsiders has created the stereotype of uptight whining feminists clutching at their pearls. Thus feminists=conservatives. I assume this is what OP meant.



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22 Feb 2016, 12:19 pm

Far left.

They're about as liberal as they are the dictionary definition of feminist. They hide behind both as well as progressive when they're more regressive.

Far right hate minorities. Far left hate majorities.



AR15000
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22 Feb 2016, 1:04 pm

NewFuturamaSucks wrote:
There's a lot of conjecture like op's towards "feminism" in the west, because many feminists, while opposed to traditional conservative/traditional ideas, they may oppose free expression when used in ways that they see as indirectly reinforcing societal norms that they're opposed to. Policing conduct that seems pretty benign to outsiders has created the stereotype of uptight whining feminists clutching at their pearls. Thus feminists=conservatives. I assume this is what OP meant.



Exactly!

But lately feminist en masse are moving away from this strategy and more towards free expression. Instead of calling for porn to be outlawed they've championed indie and amateur porn(along with their own feminist porn)to compete with mainstream porn which has been more of a success. Teaming up with christian conservatives and demanding regulation of sex turned out to be an ineffective strategy nor was it actually beneficial to women.



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22 Feb 2016, 3:50 pm

AR15000 wrote:
It is a religious belief and not a political ideology.


Ironically, for many they are one and the same. But that's getting off topic. My point was that neither liberal or conservative strictly speaking necessarily has to be equated with feminism. Liberal and conservative are ways of solving a problem; they don't have to equate to the political categories of "leftist" and "right-wing".


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22 Feb 2016, 3:56 pm

Feminists are actually from aliens from outer space trying to re-organize and control human reproductive behaviour to increase chest hair growth in both, males and females, so they can sell us as exotic pets to other aliens living somewhere in the sirius system.

Jokes aside, there is no such thing as "feminists" any more. It's a word that got so over-used with so many different meanings that it tells nothing about the person it is used by or for any more. They come in all colours and flavours, so to say.



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22 Feb 2016, 4:39 pm

A discussion on feminism that has remained civil for two pages on PPR!? 8O
Amazing.



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22 Feb 2016, 6:07 pm

LKL wrote:
A discussion on feminism that has remained civil for two pages on PPR!? 8O
Amazing.


It is not the only one like that.



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22 Feb 2016, 6:56 pm

LKL wrote:
A discussion on feminism that has remained civil for two pages on PPR!? 8O
Amazing.

I blame women.


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AR15000
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23 Feb 2016, 1:52 am

LKL wrote:
A discussion on feminism that has remained civil for two pages on PPR!? 8O
Amazing.




I blame the patriarchy. :mrgreen:



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23 Feb 2016, 5:13 am

Gloria Steinem is far from being conservative. The closest of a conservative feminist would be Tammi Bruce. Cammile Paglia is somewhere in the middle.Some of her views have been characterized as conservative. She is highly critical of 2016 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, calling her a "fraud" and a "liar".Gloria Steinem said of Paglia that, "Her calling herself a feminist is sort of like a Nazi saying they're not anti-Semitic." Paglia said that Steinem, whom she accused of not having read her, had compared her to Hitler and Sexual Personae to Mein Kampf Paglia called Steinem "the Stalin of feminism."



AR15000
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23 Feb 2016, 10:47 am

Edenthiel wrote:
AR15000 wrote:
It is a religious belief and not a political ideology.


Ironically, for many they are one and the same. But that's getting off topic. My point was that neither liberal or conservative strictly speaking necessarily has to be equated with feminism. Liberal and conservative are ways of solving a problem; they don't have to equate to the political categories of "leftist" and "right-wing".



Religion is often political but politics can be secular just as well. But your point about feminists is incorrect. Both liberals and conservatives want political change when the opposing side is in power, but conservatives oppose social change whereas liberals favor it. The reason for opposing social change is to preserve the social order and maintain the status quo. Feminists are ALL about social change! Always have been, always will be. And for that reason they cannot be associated with conservatives; who vociferously oppose feminism and speak out against it.



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23 Feb 2016, 12:51 pm

AR15000 wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
AR15000 wrote:
It is a religious belief and not a political ideology.


Ironically, for many they are one and the same. But that's getting off topic. My point was that neither liberal or conservative strictly speaking necessarily has to be equated with feminism. Liberal and conservative are ways of solving a problem; they don't have to equate to the political categories of "leftist" and "right-wing".



Religion is often political but politics can be secular just as well. But your point about feminists is incorrect. Both liberals and conservatives want political change when the opposing side is in power, but conservatives oppose social change whereas liberals favor it. The reason for opposing social change is to preserve the social order and maintain the status quo. Feminists are ALL about social change! Always have been, always will be. And for that reason they cannot be associated with conservatives; who vociferously oppose feminism and speak out against it.


I understand your point, and agree...to a point.

"Always have been, always will be."

That's where our views differ, I think. Feminist only want to change society where inequality exists (I'm conveniently ignoring for the argument the very few extremist outliers that want a matriarchy as despicable as the patriarchy). But the question is how to go about it, and this is greatly influenced by awareness of things like intersectionality. For instance, conservatives feel society should be color blind and everyone should be allowed to build on their own merits, while liberals feel there are already existing inequalities that should be actively managed. Neither is the current state of affairs, so both would be a rather radical change.


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