Capitalism vs socialism

Post Reply New Topic

This statement makes no sense.

There is nothing "natural" about individual rights and free trade. Both are social conventions invented by human beings, and both rely on a legal framework of enforcement to function in the real world.

If all parties think it's in their best interest, then it is "natural."

I wouldn't say that I espouse total random capitalism. But free trade, overall, is the best way to go.

Correct

In this quote; you are talking about a specific form of socialism, and a specific form of communism. First of all, I would personally change this description to; everyone having equal access to common goods and services. Not all goods in a communist economy are available to everyone, and people aren't required to possess the same things.


As stated earlier, the first sentence in the quote above, is loosely describing one form of socialism.

In Mutualism or Market Socialism for an example, people would earn money. This money would be used to pay for goods and services provided by individuals and worker cooperatives.

Another example can be Anarcho-collectivism. In Anarcho-collectivism, goods would be obtained through communal stores, where people use labour vouchers. These labour vouchers are not money, because they are no longer worth anything after the exchange is finished.

There are many more socialisms out there. That is just two from the top of my head.



-I can't agree with your conclusion about communism for numerous reasons.

One of the things that bothers me about capitalism is it relies on slavery.

The obvious type of slavery is what we (some of us) now decry as "evil" and maintain it should not be used.

But, as we know, slavery of the most overt kind is used in almost all countries.

And then there's the matter of the "wage slave." For the use of this post I'll describe a "wage slave" as one whose social condition leaves him/her little choice....work for "The Man" and follow his rules or starve.

This is the situation of many economic immigrants (also known as "Illegal aliens") that are clandestinely allowed to illegally enter this country so they can then be exploited for their illegal status.

Ahhhhh! Capitalism....don't you just love it? Let's put the little kids back in the coal mines so they can learn the value of a dollar (heh, heh).....or maybe we can get people to pick cotton at the lowest rates possible? Capitalism would turn people into machine cogs and discard them when worn out...history tells us this is true.

There are other meanings we can use to describe "Capitalism" but it boils down to a person with money, or some other type of "edge" can hire people to work and not pay them for the full value of the work they've done, because the "Boss" will take from each worker as much as they can while still managing to keep people chasing that "carrot."

In this country we try to force capitalists" to pay a minimum living wage....however this rule is null and void in many other countries so this is where the "capitalist" will go for labor...and to hide his/her profits, and etc.. And people live in the depths of poverty. We call these types of things "Free Trade" which means "free access to profit from and to promote slavery" for our enterprising capitalists.

This is the "true" face of Capitalism, not the one shown on TV.

History tells us that capitalism has generated massive improvements in living standards, life expectancy, educational achievement and general well-being.

But don't just take my word for it... ask the world:



Source: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/10/09/eme ... he-future/

It's at this point where I usually say something stupid and angry sounding....as I was reminded by a moderator the other day.

And I figured out why this is true. I was born during WWII, my father left to "do his duty" 2 months after I was born (and came back OK)...another factor---1/2 of my family is Jewish the other 1/2 Lutheran---I've consequently thought a lot about the war...Germany...Hitler...peoples right to be human...things like this which have made emotional inroads to my psyche. The piles of human bodies.....not just during WWII, but throughout history, will always affect me.

Ask the world???? Is the average person in the study aware of the long term effects of burning coal (or anything else)???? Or are they only interested in how much rice is in their bowl at dinner time??? It's like asking people if they believe in God...it's an opinion without facts...and this is just the way corporations love it....sure they'll give them a few more grains of rice---when they should be giving them $15.00/hr. or the local equivalent....which they do/will not.

And I'm sure the Native Americans thought they had a good deal when they sold Manhattan Island as well, and we all know how well that worked out for them. So all your stats really show is the people are fooled once again.

Excusing inequities by showing how improved the train service was under Hitler will not win any votes from me...ever, nor should "studies" such as this fool anyone (although, most certainly, they will continue to do so). Please "Don't forget!"

Yes.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/07/14/cli ... al-threat/


Capitalism have lifted 728 million Chinese out of extreme poverty since 1979, as I have documented here:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=312181&p=7050325#p7050325

Dismissing the social progress achieved through capitalism as a "few more grains of rice" and comparing it to something as petty as the current US minimum wage debate is an exercise in arrogance and extreme ethnocentrism.


My stats show that people are better off because of capitalism. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

This happened under feudalism too. I'm not kidding. This is what the kings and queens were saying before they got their heads cut off.

Living standards may have been raised in spite of capitalism, rather than because of it. Massive improvements in living standards occurred under the soviet regime in Russia too. Should we all become Bolsheviks now?

You mean I get to live a longer miserable life?

What is all this education being used for?

As Chomsky pointed out, the most educated societies are racing to annihilate the earths ecosystems. The "backwards" and uncivilized people, are the ones who are caring for the environment.

Where did you find this one? Are you basing this on a pew research poll on "optimism"?


Here's question for you...

Why do we work more hours than english peasants from the 13th century?
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/r ... kweek.html

ZenDen wrote:

Ask the world???? Is the average person in the study aware of the long term effects of burning coal (or anything else)???? Or are they only interested in how much rice is in their bowl at dinner time???

Yes.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/07/14/cli ... al-threat/
This does not address the structure of my comment and does not show the relative importance of food, etc..

ZenDen wrote:

It's like asking people if they believe in God...it's an opinion without facts...and this is just the way corporations love it....sure they'll give them a few more grains of rice---when they should be giving them $15.00/hr. or the local equivalent....which they do/will not.

Capitalism have lifted 728 million Chinese out of extreme poverty since 1979, as I have documented here:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=312181&p=7050325#p7050325
How do you show "State sponsored" capitalism is different/seperate from the Communist form of rule there now?

Dismissing the social progress achieved through capitalism as a "few more grains of rice" and comparing it to something as petty as the current US minimum wage debate is an exercise in arrogance and extreme ethnocentrism.

This must mean you agree with the idea a living wage is not necessary? Frankly you seem quite arrogant yourself...are these people to be treated as less human because of the form of economy you prefer? For your information the economy you prefer in China....:
From the HuffPost:

"Since 2001, the United States has lost 2.8 million manufacturing jobs to China — that despite U.S. factory workers being far more productive.
Partly, it can be explained by China’s cheaper workers: The average hourly wage for Chinese manufacturing workers is less than a tenth that of their average U.S. counterparts, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics."
Are we to believe this is a glorious situation (???) or is this just a few more grains of rice to maintain production? I'd (from previous examples) guess the latter.


ZenDen wrote:

And I'm sure the Native Americans thought they had a good deal when they sold Manhattan Island as well, and we all know how well that worked out for them. So all your stats really show is the people are fooled once again.

My stats show that people are better off because of capitalism. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.
And you seem to think there's something good about working for others, even though the slave wages are still present. And THEN you attribute any gains in peoples condition to capitalism when the real garland should be given to unions and others that resist the slavery that is capitalism.

ZenDen wrote:

Excusing inequities by showing how improved the train service was under Hitler will not win any votes from me...ever, nor should "studies" such as this fool anyone (although, most certainly, they will continue to do so). Please "Don't forget!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Excusing inequities by showing how improved the train service was under Hitler will not win any votes from me...ever, nor should "studies" such as this fool anyone (although, most certainly, they will continue to do so). Please "Don't forget!"

Godwin's "Law"....what an asinine thing. An easy thing to call up to dismiss others real reactions. I believe this is an example of dismissing realities in favor of something "glitch" such as: "If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit." So much easier than facing the realities of the statements about atrocities...however they just won't go away....sorry for dissing your error.

Maybe there should be a "Godwin" type "law" about people turning to Godwin's Law any time they feel pressed regardless of the validity of their opponent's statement?

You should take the 8values quiz.