Baton Rouge shooting

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L_Holmes
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18 Jul 2016, 3:11 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

And that's why I dislike SJWs so much. They're basically throwing the biggest pity party ever, and white cis males are not invited.

Then screw 'em. Who wants to hang out with a bunch of pretentious faux bohemians (that's what sort of phonies hipsters are) who are just as narrow minded as any right wing bigot?
For the record, real bohemians are cool.

I wouldn't care if they weren't teaching their f****d up ideology in universities (and even in some elementary and high schools).

I certainly don't care to be invited to their pity party, but I find it ironic, because basically they are perpetuating racism rather than helping people to understand it. They are literally teaching that blacks, women, gays etc. ARE actually less than others, and so they need extra help and support to accomplish things.

Like affirmative action. The goal should be to improve education and opportunities so more black people will have the resources they need to achieve success. But with something like affirmative action, they are basically making a quota for minorities being accepted into universities and give them a lower standard to meet. They might as well just be saying, "You can't succeed without the help of the white man, and you will never be as good as a white person at anything." It is a way of masking a problem rather than fixing it. And SJWs take that to the extreme, so in my mind they are being literally racist, even if they are unaware that they are.

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Bataar
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18 Jul 2016, 10:09 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

But that sort of rhetoric by Black Lives Matter activists isn't going on everywhere. In fact, most of their people have been calling for nonviolence from the very start. The only reason why that was showcased by the media is because that sort of hateful language brings in the viewers, but peaceful demonstrations are apparently just boring.

True, but that doesn't mean there isn't a strong anti-cop sentiment that is prevalent throughout the group. With the level of outrage they are producing, it's not a shock that some people decide to take it this far.

The outrage is not even justified. There is certainly police brutality, lack of police accountability, and other systemic issues, but these things affect everyone, not just black people. Yet they continue to use examples of what they call racist, unjustified killings of completely innocent people as the main reason for their protests, when the facts simply do not add up.

In the case of Michael Brown, the "gentle giant", he was seen on camera stealing cigars from a store, and slamming someone into a display on his way out. The struggle with the police started when he reached through the window of a police SUV, and shortly after he was shot and killed. It was determined after investigation that he was not surrendering, did not have his hands up when he was shot, and he was not shot in the back. So at the very least, it was a grey area. Maybe excessive force was used, but it certainly does not seem like the racial killing of an innocent man who was surrendering to police. However, that did not stop BLM and the media from portraying it as such.

In the case of the recent killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, we simply do not have all the facts yet. In the case of Alton Sterling, police were called by a man saying he was being threatened by another man believed to be Sterling, who was supposedly brandishing a handgun. He was also apparently struggling with the police and was going for his gun, which was in his pocket when he was shot. Is that all true? Maybe, maybe not. We just don't have all the facts yet. But once again, this does not stop BLM from painting it as racist cops who killed yet another innocent man.

In the case of Philando Castile, the officer radioed in, saying that he matched the description of a man who recently committed armed robbery, and proceeded to pull him over. Castile's girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, was in the passenger seat, and recorded the aftermath of the incident. Reynolds stated on the video that the officer "asked him for license and registration. He told him that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him because he's licensed to carry." Reynolds told the officer: "You shot four bullets into him, sir. He was just getting his license and registration, sir." The officer screamed, "I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his hands off it!" We don't have all the details, so it's hard to say what really happened at this point and whether or not it was justified.

BLM should NOT be using these killings as proof of racist cops. And yet they do, and they manufacture outrage. And now we have 8 dead cops, who were doing NOTHING wrong at the time of their death, and even more injured, as well as all manner bullying coming from protesters. So forgive me if I feel a little angry at the religion of peace that is Black Lives Matter.

Brown was a jock, so it goes with the territory that he was an a$$hole. Sterling and Castile are two very different stories. Sterling was being held down on the ground when shot, while Castile was complying with police orders when shot, which is more than enough reason for the rest of us to call bullsh*t on the cops. Remember, last year when a black man was asked to produce his ID at a gas station, the cop shot him when he was walking to get it from his vehicle. Had the security camera at the station not captured the incident - and if the black guy had died - I'm sure the cop would have claimed the shooting was only out of self defense. The fact is, blacks feel frightened and alienated from the police in a way that the rest of us don't, as the police automatically assume they are guilty of something. That's why Black Lives Matter outrage isn't manufactured, as it's only expressing pent up anger. And no, that doesn't justify shooting cops not at all connected to those shootings - but then again, Black Lives Matter activists have said as much.

People have pointed out that it's not hard to shoot a gun even if it's in your pocket. Sterling could have easily injured or killed one of the cops if he wasn't complying and was going for the gun. And with Castile, there is not much proof of anything as of yet. His girlfriend only recorded the aftermath.

Both investigations are ongoing. According to the logic of Black Lives Matter, these officers deserve no due process, because they committed the sin of killing a black man, even when it might have been justified. We don't know yet.

Plus, if they are found guilty, then they are bad cops and they will go to jail, as they should. It's not legal to kill a man without justification, regardless of their skin color or if the killer is a cop, so what is being protested exactly? Sometimes people do bad things, but that doesn't mean it's everyone else's fault. Hold the offenders themselves responsible, not every single cop.

Considering that so many black men have been killed without justification by a percentage of police, without said police officers being punished, I can understand why Black Lives Matter would jump the gun and demand justice. The only reason why cops are under scrutiny for this these days is because of the abundance of film from cell phones, security cameras, and police body cams.

Just out of curiosity, which of these cases do you consider to be without justification? Off the top of my head, I can think of two. Eric Garner (I believe that's his name) and the one where the police shot the guy that was running away. The two recent cases we don't have enough information on to make a credible decision. The vast majority of them seem to show that the police was in the right, however, and was therefore fully justified.

Campin_Cat
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18 Jul 2016, 6:32 pm

L_Holmes wrote:

Like affirmative action. The goal should be to improve education and opportunities so more black people will have the resources they need to achieve success. But with something like affirmative action, they are basically making a quota for minorities being accepted into universities and give them a lower standard to meet. They might as well just be saying, "You can't succeed without the help of the white man, and you will never be as good as a white person at anything." It is a way of masking a problem rather than fixing it. And SJWs take that to the extreme, so in my mind they are being literally racist, even if they are unaware that they are.

This is one of the best paragraphs I've ever read on WP----very eloquent / well thought-out, etc., and I AGREE----GOOD JOB!!

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kraftiekortie
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18 Jul 2016, 6:35 pm

I agree with what Holmes said about Affirmative Action.

But I, myself have never had a professor, male or female, try to indoctrinate me with SJW ideological material.

L_Holmes
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18 Jul 2016, 10:01 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

This is one of the best paragraphs I've ever read on WP----very eloquent / well thought-out, etc., and I AGREE----GOOD JOB!!

Thanks

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L_Holmes
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18 Jul 2016, 10:04 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I agree with what Holmes said about Affirmative Action.

But I, myself have never had a professor, male or female, try to indoctrinate me with SJW ideological material.

For the most part it's only going to be in the sociology departments that they teach that sort of thing. It isn't a majority of universities that do (at least, I hope not), but it's definitely not just a couple either. I could find some examples. I don't have time at the moment though.

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L_Holmes
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18 Jul 2016, 11:57 pm

Here's a recent video that addresses this mass hysteria about white people (and especially law enforcement) having racial biases.

Lots of interesting information. Discuss.

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kraftiekortie
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19 Jul 2016, 12:05 am

I don't believe a white person is automatically a racist.

I believe nonwhite people could be racists.

I wish we could dispense with Affirmative Action.

Yet, I'm not going to listen to anything pertaining to "white rights" or "men's rights."

funeralxempire
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19 Jul 2016, 12:32 am

Let's not pretend Gavin Long was affiliated with BLM. He was affiliated with right-wing sovereign citizen groups and with Moorish American affiliated groups that promoted sovereign citizen ideologies.

BLM doesn't promote anything resembling the sovereign citizen ideology and sovereign citizens of many ethnic backgrounds have been involved in a number of violent attacks and stand-offs with police and other government officials for the past decade.

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L_Holmes
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19 Jul 2016, 2:24 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Right, let's pretend it has NOTHING to do with BLM just because he was ALSO involved with other groups. Even though he had been very supportive of BLM and talked about the oppression of blacks, racism of police etc. in the time leading up to the shooting. :roll:

Not only that, apparently he was outraged over the Alton Sterling shooting and had been ranting about it online, even though, as I've pointed out in this thread, we don't have all the facts about the shooting and we shouldn't be pretending it was definitely racially motivated, nor should we be outraged until we do have all the facts.

But who has been causing all the outrage anyway? Oh yeah: BLACK LIVES f*****g MATTER.

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funeralxempire
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19 Jul 2016, 11:00 am

L_Holmes wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Not every black person who's upset over racism and excessive use of force against the black community is involved with BLM. Sovereign citizens insist that even many basic interactions with the police are always harassment because they believe that the state has no authority over them, they feel they don't owe taxes, etc. They would be outraged without BLM, and while their grievances somewhat overlap they don't agree on much. Among things, many sovereign citizens believe violent confrontation with the state is both desirable and a means of demonstrating sovereignty.

What you're doing is the equivalent of blaming Huey Newton for actions done by followers of Clarence 13X or Elijah Mohammad; it's like blaming PETA for ALF's actions.

I know you it's easier to just pretend they're all the same, but not if you wish to be credible on the topic. It's not really reasonable to lump responsibility on all sovereign citizen groups, since while they're all 'crazy', not all of them believe initiating violence against the state is justifiable, and it's certainly not reasonable to place blame on a largely non-violent group that doesn't promote any sort of insurrectionary use of force as a means of achieving their goals. Maybe I'm just naive, who needs to understand a topic in any depth in order to have an opinion to express?

Of course, the outrage isn't the result of the number of unjustifiable shootings of blacks, how dare they be outraged over that.

L_Holmes
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19 Jul 2016, 4:12 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Yes, the outrage isn't because of the number of unjustified shootings of black people, because that number is fabricated. Explain why these shining examples of police racism always turn out to be deliberate attempts by the media and BLM to give a comically oversimplified and misleading description of the events that transpired.

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying Islamic terrorists have nothing to do with the Islam. But at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you believe that too.

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funeralxempire
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19 Jul 2016, 7:14 pm

L_Holmes wrote:

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying Islamic terrorists have nothing to do with the Islam. But at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you believe that too.

They certainly 'have to do with' Islam, but they're not representative of Islam or of the Muslim community in general, but that's a tune from another opera. It doesn't surprise me that you'd try to distract with another oversimplification after your current one sunk from all the holes in it.

By analogy, if a black Muslim sovereign citizen commits an act of terrorism you'd be insisting it's because he's Muslim and motivated by Islamist ideology or because he's black and motivated by BLM and ignoring that he was never accepting of Wahhabi ideology and felt that BLM weren't radical enough.

To be fair to you, you haven't yet suggested Gavin Long was an Islamist, but then again you're not familiar enough with what he believed to know that most Washitaw Nation are affiliated with the Moorish Science Temple of America and that they're one of the sects of 'Black Muslims' that came up in the US in the 20th century (and not the same as Muslims who are black); or that he specifically denounced peaceful movements like BLM 'the act of peaceful protesting is a futile method based on emotion and was easily forgettable' or that he had a history of making long, rambling conspiracy theory and black supremacist espousing diatribes that began long before BLM came into existence. Who needs to know the details, he's 'one of them' and therefore the details don't matter.

L_Holmes
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19 Jul 2016, 8:12 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying Islamic terrorists have nothing to do with the Islam. But at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you believe that too.

I like how you just ignored the main part of my response, and only quoted the part about Islamic terrorism and centered in on that as if I was saying it's literally the same thing. I was simply making a point.

The point is, to just deny outright that his actions were at all influenced by BLM, their protests, the recent killings etc. is silly. It was clearly a factor. Just because he was more influenced by his already crazy ideas doesn't mean we can deny other factors when it serves us.

In my opinion, the guy was already crazy, but the outrage about the supposed racism of the police is what spurred him into action.

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funeralxempire
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20 Jul 2016, 10:31 am

L_Holmes wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying Islamic terrorists have nothing to do with the Islam. But at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you believe that too.

I responded to the most reasonable point you made. If you're going to claim the number of unjustified shootings are fabricated that's a claim you should try to back up with evidence and not expect to be taken as gospel truth. Some of the officers involved have been acquitted or were never charged, but that isn't evidence that the shootings were justified when it's just as likely the result of the thin blue line culture that protects police from repercussions when they make horrible judgment calls. Maybe you've convinced yourself that a few were justified, but that falls into the category of lies you need to tell yourself in order to sleep at night.

Further, you seem to still be insisting BLM is the cause of outrage over those killings and doesn't exist as a result of those killings and the outrage they cause. Your point is to wrongfully try to present BLM as at fault for outrage caused by the actions of police.

L_Holmes
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20 Jul 2016, 11:01 am

funeralxempire wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

L_Holmes wrote:

What you are doing is the equivalent of saying Islamic terrorists have nothing to do with the Islam. But at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you believe that too.

The burden of proof is not on me. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim; in this case, the one making the claim that they ARE doing such things has to prove it. You don't just get to make an extreme claim like the one you and BLM are making, and then tell the person who doesn't believe it to prove you wrong. If that's how you think it works, fine, but I'm not wasting my time disproving a claim that has little or no evidence.

If the killings were legitimately completely unjustified like they claim, I would be understanding of the outrage. But what I'm seeing is a massive lack of attention to detail and an inability to have a nuanced opinion. There were many factors involved in both of the recent shootings, just like there is in any such situation, and yet people want to boil it down to one extremely simple aspect: white cop shoots black man. Does no other detail of the situation matter? Apparently not to BLM.

We don't even have all the facts yet, so I'll be the first to say that for all I know they were both unjustified. But the same goes both ways; they could have been completely justified.

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