police violence and rape culture: 2 sides of the same coin?

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Hi ZenDen,

I understand your strong feelings on this issue. I sense that you feel that should we deny that we are a "tainted" culture, with rape as an integral part of it, that we are ignoring the issue as a result.

But:

I don't discount statistics.

I don't ignore statistics.

How am I ignoring anything?

It's obvious there's lots of rapes and violence in this society. Where, in heaven's name, did I deny that?

It doesn't mean that we are a "rape culture," is all I'm saying. It's not a primary part of our ethos. It's an unfortunate byproduct of the idiot element in our society. Sometimes, eminently "decent" people commit violence and rape--but this is when they cross the line to idiocy.

We must take drastic steps to prevent rape, and to prevent violence. We must not make it pleasant for a person to commit violence and rape--to say the least. This includes cops.

We need a police force which doesn't have all these misogynist and racist elements.

I don't believe one of the "steps" should be to assume that every man is a potential rapist. I just don't believe in that notion.

Kraftie, I think your definition of "rape culture" is different from that of other people in this thread. Your definition seems to be that a rape culture only exists if the majority of people in a culture are rapists. That is not the standard definition of the term.
If you accepted Edenthiel's definition, would you then agree that there is a rape culture in the West? If not, what parts of her definition do you feel our culture does not fit?

I think it's fair to say that police violence and rape culture are two sides of the same coin. Both, I think, originate in part from our culture's toxic definition of masculinity, but I think that's only a small part of police violence, which has much more to do with white supremacy.

I read the definition--and I feel like one can perceive that rape is normalized in popular culture, and in the misogyny of the media, based on what is represented in the media.

Yep...we have these sorts of images, and some people adhere to these notions. More and more as time goes by.

However, overall, as a culture, I don't find that most people, in general, normalize rape, and that we are as misogynist as what is portrayed in the media. What tends to be portrayed on TV, and in Reality Television in particular, are people who do not reflect the norms of the general society; these people are on the fringes, I find.

I do find that more and more young people these days, unfortunately, respond positively to what's in the media, and try to emulate it. They believe that this is the way it its; when it really isn't. They believe this is reality and that they must be like this in order to be real.

This is something we must stem; otherwise, we just might become a Rape Culture per Edenthiel's definition.

Would you deny a rape culture exists in our universities? Could you deny this? If this is true then it's part of our culture. The fact most decry this does NOT change any facts.

And the facts you see above ARE ONLY THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN REPORTED.

Please let me know when you see a trend....maybe after the numbers rise higher???

However, overall, as a culture, I don't find that most people, in general, normalize rape
SO WHAT? That was without value. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE THATDO NORMALIZE RAPE; THERE ARE MILLIONS OF THEM.

If you're the one getting raped how much of this TREND do you think constitutes a (filthy) CULTURE???

Not only are you being obtuse, you're also being very insensitive.

Kraftie, media is a component of our culture. It both reflects and shapes our society's values.
To say the media encourages rape culture, but no rape culture exists, is nonsensical. Media IS culture.

I'm neither obtuse nor insensitive--but that's only my opinion.

I've been forced upon by a man--so I'm a "victim," so to speak.

I really don't know what goes on in universities. When I went to college, I went late, and I went to a commuter college.

I think there's lots that must be addressed.

But to say that I "ignore" the situation, or that I'm obtuse or insensitive without knowing me in person is really not the way to go. I'm attracted by honey, not vinegar.

We agree on most things--we just don't agree on mere semantics. You believe this is a "rape" culture; and I don't.

C'est la vie.

I'm probably going to get some more rockets aimed at me---but it's my fault; I inspired it.

Hi guy....we think you're OK, that's why we post.

But first you say: "I really don't know what goes on in universities. When I went to college, I went late, and I went to a commuter college."

And then you say: "But to say that I "ignore" the situation, or that I'm obtuse or insensitive without knowing me in person is really not the way to go."

So, as this is the case, then it might behoove you to read some more about rape statistics; saying "I really don't know what goes on in universities" is just a cop-out for not learning.

Old beliefs die hard.

P.S. I never said or implied you were being "deliberately" obtuse....but we all have our blind spots. But ignoring your/our "blind spot" could/would make you insensitive.

to me it seems that the root problem is that unrelated moral superiority is a widely accepted justification for virtually anything in american culture, even by the law. and then you have a huge society with wildly dissonant and rapidly mutating ideas of what is or is not morally superior to what, where everybody can find ways to feel morally superior (even in the most outrageous situations), and count on someone to firmly corroborate their view. which nearly (or sometimes literally) makes the quest for an applauding audience a matter of survival, while your actions themselves become secondary

it seems like a very defining trait of american culture (not "western" culture, btw. specifically american, all races included). it's a society incompatible with itself as it is. it's not going to last long as such. something drastic (good or bad; don't know) is going to happen to its foundations

But the thing is: I've read the rape statistics. I'll read anything.

I can't claim to know what's going on in universities--because I never was IN one. I was never a dorm student.

I've heard some nasty things--like mickey-slipping and all that. And people getting taken advantage of while drunk--especially women. Women waking up with somebody they don't know, and feeling semen inside of them. Then getting pregnant afterwards. Violence being committed because of a "no" answer. I've heard the stories--from friends and from written accounts.

It's an unpleasant thing to be raped--the only reason why I wasn't "raped" was because the guy didn't penetrate me. So I DO know the feeling. Fortunately, it didn't cause too much trauma in me, partially because I repressed the memory for a long time. And partially because I knew I had to move on in order to survive.

Something has to be done about this, like I said before. We must educate men, and we must educate women. But I don't believe we should tell each man that they are a rapist-in-the making. Because I don't believe they are.

We should tell them the stories of what goes on, obviously, and we should be graphic about it. Talk about legal consequences. Be rough about it all.

Like I said, our disagreement is one of semantics only. I just don't believe that all men are potential rapists, or that I'm part of a "Patriarchy," and things like that.

Is the U.S. a murder culture or a theft culture too?

I don't find rape to be morally justifiable.

I don't believe Americans are morally superior to others.

Americans come in all opinions, all moral stances; don't lump them into a generalization, please.

they do. despite the large percentage of americans here, and i don't expect anyone here to find rape morally justifiable, and i only expect a few here will believe <whatever their nationality is> is morally superior

the culture that surrounds you doesn't define you if you don't define yourself by it. but it exists all the same. and granted, i may always be wrong about my impressions, but that's another matter

also, i'm not talking about rape or brutality or anything in particular. i'm talking about a mentality that encourages questionable behavior in contexts where it wouldn't be likely otherwise. i'm also not saying it makes the culture fundamentally worse than any other. most cultures and societies have deep issues. that's just one particular flavor of issue, which becomes increasingly unstable/destabilizing when there are rapid, heterogenous and self-reinforces cultural cycles like we see today

Last edited by anagram on 25 Jul 2016, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There is the "ugly American" stereotype....and stereotypes always have a ring of truth to them.

I wish Americans would sometimes represent themselves better in foreign lands.

We might have "saved the world" 70 years ago; but we aren't saving anybody right now!

We're going down the tubes morally, and in our image around the world; we need somebody who can convey moral leadership. I don't believe either Hillary or Trump is that person. Trump, because of his isolationalism; Hillary, because of her general "slickness."

yes, and there is always also the possibility that it is not much other than a stereotype, with less representativeness than you would expect from it. and i'll be the first to admit that the main reason why i don't divulge my nationality is because i don't want to be associated with the often horrible and demeaning stereotypes associated with it. not necessarily because those stereotypes are outrageous, though. it's because much of it is (statistically) true

i'm very detached from what is supposedly "my culture", but then that's just my word against the reader's. it's always a tricky situation, especially because my nationality doesn't have as much visibility as americans, so a person's first preconceived impressions may not be as easily tempered with the awareness that "people come in all shapes and colors". and while "my culture" has its significant positive aspects (like virtually any culture does), i'm certainly not going to defend it as a whole, because, as a whole, i really don't like it. likewise, i don't think anyone else has any obligation to defend their country/society/whathaveyou as a whole (or criticize it either, for that matter) in order to be seen for who they are individually

but, back to cultural american phenomenons, there are some fairly straightforward statistics (or statistically-revealing phenomenons) that i hear about from time to time that make me go . currently, trump is the most obvious of those. and i've seen many americans saying "i'm surprised foreigners are surprised about trump's popularity". there's also things like "<some percentage close to half> of americans believe every single word in the bible is meant to be taken literally". and certain things you see on the news, or represented in the media, that may not be prevalent individually (i do believe rape mentality and popular support for police brutality are among those things), but taken collectively, i see a pattern, and everything fits


i can fully relate. the political scenario specifically is really no better in my country either. different, but no better

i agree--they are tricks to avoid personal responsibility and deny the existence of a systemic problem. that's why the argument that "a lot of women lie about being raped and ruin innocent men's lives" is so popular in attempt to distract from and neutralize the real issue. narrating anecdotes from stories where someone lied and messed with innocent people with lots of emphasis on how it negatively affected the innocent person's life trajectory are also used to appeal to people's emotional empathy, and the convenient lack of evidence in these types of cases act as placeholders for fact-based arguments.

also, some of us may face more exposure or pay more attention to rape culture than others, and i have found that people who don't understand what rape culture means, don't see it as a problem because "most people don't rape/most people are not okay with rape", or see it as a whiny SJW radfem complaint in the interest of self-victimization and male-hatred are those who are lucky enough to not have to worry about it very often. there is not one woman i've had a conversation about this with who hasn't been sexually harassed before, and most worry about it happening to them again, because it most likely will. it's not a surprise when it does. when i walk across town to visit a friend of mine its not uncommon for me to have a story of what some guy said about me to me. in this past year i have been followed twice by car and once on foot by men who felt entitled to me. it's hard to feel like a real person in the moment when someone mentally, verbally, or physically examines you and takes you and it does not occur to them that you are not consenting to have your sentience stripped away. i am not significantly beautiful or sexy, i'm just an average plain looking young woman. tell me this isn't a systemic cultural problem. please, tell me i'm making this up.

more of my female friends who i've been close enough with to talk to about this have been raped or molested than haven't been. none have pressed charges. most people don't lie about having been raped because most people are not severely mentally ill. just because YOU don't rape and YOU don't think rape is okay and YOU don't see it happening doesn't mean that it's not, it means that you're not. and assuming your perspective is in any way indicative of other people's experiences really just seems to me like another way to "shut us up". (kraftie, if you're reading this, i am not directing this at you specifically, it was just easier for me to use "you" statements. i think your head is in the right place but your interpretation of what rape culture means is a little off...perhaps too literal.) it's impossible to deny the existence of a rape culture when you're immersed in it every day.

rape culture is not being surprised when your friend tells you to avoid a certain person because the list of people to avoid is growing by the dozen every year. it's preemptively changing up the way you walk home after work so that it's harder for you to be followed. it's when you have to explain to someone how a husband can rape a wife, or why it's considered non-consensual if one or both parties is intoxicated (hint--it's because the law is meant to protect people like a kind of safety-net if they have been violated. it's not meant to be used so absolutely.) it's when the university has gotten complaints about the amount sexual violence and some administrative a**holes decide its a good idea to put posters up on the inside doors of all the bathroom stalls on campus indicating how to be safer and avoid sexual violence without even mentioning anything about, ya know, not raping. because obviously raping is bad, everyone knows that! "so just pull down your pants and be forced to read about how you can do a better job at not being sexually violated and then how you can get help after the fact when it does happen to you." it's hearing men talk about women walking on the sidewalk from the quiet safety of the inside of the car, saying they "would do her", describing how the shape of her ass is the most appealing sort of the variety of assets available, or that her body makes up for her butterface, 7/10, worth it. it's a compliment, right? and she has no idea that she is being taken at that moment but i'm sure she's aware of the probability, no, the inevitability. i'm sure she experiences enough of it directly to know that it happens silently too. it's just a fact of life. tell me this isn't a systemic cultural problem. and i'm not saying that women don't perpetuate rape culture or anything, because i've heard women talk about men and other women like fuckmeat without regard for their humanity, and i've heard lots more women slut-shame other women than men slut-shaming women. it's just that my experiences are as a woman and there really are a lot more men than women who perpetuate this kind of attitude so that's where i'm coming from.

i think arguing against the existence of a rape culture, especially from a perspective of considerable ignorance, is part of rape culture. or i guess it's safe to assume we are probably all just indecisive drunk attention-seeking b*****s complaining hysterically about how terrible our lives are because men are so evil. and how feminists who talk about rape culture are drawing attention to minor incidents and fabricating issues out of thin air just to have something to whine about rather than focusing on --insert example of severe female oppression in whatever islamic country here-- you selfish c**t