The Saxons sure love their caste systems
14 Aug 2016, 11:21 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
I relate to that as an interest.
But the OP seems to be hinting at stuff without coming and stating it.
The OP seems to be hinting that he/she thinks that the Saxons migrated to Saxony from India, and that they brought the caste system with them from their homeland in India. Just trying to force the OP's hand to get him/her to lay his cards on the table.
But the OP seems to be hinting at stuff without coming and stating it.
The OP seems to be hinting that he/she thinks that the Saxons migrated to Saxony from India, and that they brought the caste system with them from their homeland in India. Just trying to force the OP's hand to get him/her to lay his cards on the table.
All Indo-European peoples - Germanic, Slavic, Celtic, Latin, Persian, Indian, etc - had originated from the Maykop/Yamana cultures of the region between the Caspian and Black seas, as well as the Eurasian steppe, from where they had exploded out of during the Neolithic, spreading their genes, languages, religion, and caste system everywhere they went.
Like every other tribe in Europe (except of oddball groups like the Etruscans, and the Basque) the Saxons have a certain extremely distant indirect connection to India.
The Saxons are an offshoot the Germanic speakers, who like the Celts, the Italic/Latins, the Balts, the Slaves, the Albanians, the Greeks, the Hittites, the Armenians, the Iranians, and the speakers of the Aryan languages of the northern two thirds of the Indian subcontinent, are themselves off shoots of the huge Indoeuropean language family which stretches from Ireland to Assam in India.
The origin of the language family is still in dispute but probably the original IE speakers lived in Anatolia, spread east into Iran, and then from there an offshoot invaded India (and became the Sanskrit speakers), the rest arced around the Caspian sea through central Asia, and then invaded Europe via the Pontic region north of the Black Sea, and then imposed their language on the native Europeans. The Indoeuropean invaders of Europe didnt necessarily come from India (the Indian offshoot were a seperate branch that likely had already gone its seperate way), and even if they had come from India they wouldnt necessarily have had the caste system. The Indoeuropean invaders of India are more likely to have created the caste after they had conquered India than to already had it as a migrating tribe before they invaded. They invented the caste system probably precisely because they found themselves ruling a big native population and they to create religious notions to codify the division of labor of a big diverse population, and to sanctify their own dominance as the Brahmans, and justify keeping the original locals in the lower strata castes.
And even if the folks who brought the Indoeuropean type languages into ancient Europe DID come from India, and DID leave India with the concept of the caste system then why didnt every Indoeuropean speaking ethnic group in Europe also have the same caste system? Why would only the Saxons retain it, and everyone (other Germans, Romans, Celts, etc) not retain it?
Doesnt make sense.
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
14 Aug 2016, 3:58 pm
naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
I relate to that as an interest.
But the OP seems to be hinting at stuff without coming and stating it.
The OP seems to be hinting that he/she thinks that the Saxons migrated to Saxony from India, and that they brought the caste system with them from their homeland in India. Just trying to force the OP's hand to get him/her to lay his cards on the table.
But the OP seems to be hinting at stuff without coming and stating it.
The OP seems to be hinting that he/she thinks that the Saxons migrated to Saxony from India, and that they brought the caste system with them from their homeland in India. Just trying to force the OP's hand to get him/her to lay his cards on the table.
All Indo-European peoples - Germanic, Slavic, Celtic, Latin, Persian, Indian, etc - had originated from the Maykop/Yamana cultures of the region between the Caspian and Black seas, as well as the Eurasian steppe, from where they had exploded out of during the Neolithic, spreading their genes, languages, religion, and caste system everywhere they went.
Like every other tribe in Europe (except of oddball groups like the Etruscans, and the Basque) the Saxons have a certain extremely distant indirect connection to India.
The Saxons are an offshoot the Germanic speakers, who like the Celts, the Italic/Latins, the Balts, the Slaves, the Albanians, the Greeks, the Hittites, the Armenians, the Iranians, and the speakers of the Aryan languages of the northern two thirds of the Indian subcontinent, are themselves off shoots of the huge Indoeuropean language family which stretches from Ireland to Assam in India.
The origin of the language family is still in dispute but probably the original IE speakers lived in Anatolia, spread east into Iran, and then from there an offshoot invaded India (and became the Sanskrit speakers), the rest arced around the Caspian sea through central Asia, and then invaded Europe via the Pontic region north of the Black Sea, and then imposed their language on the native Europeans. The Indoeuropean invaders of Europe didnt necessarily come from India (the Indian offshoot were a seperate branch that likely had already gone its seperate way), and even if they had come from India they wouldnt necessarily have had the caste system. The Indoeuropean invaders of India are more likely to have created the caste after they had conquered India than to already had it as a migrating tribe before they invaded. They invented the caste system probably precisely because they found themselves ruling a big native population and they to create religious notions to codify the division of labor of a big diverse population, and to sanctify their own dominance as the Brahmans, and justify keeping the original locals in the lower strata castes.
And even if the folks who brought the Indoeuropean type languages into ancient Europe DID come from India, and DID leave India with the concept of the caste system then why didnt every Indoeuropean speaking ethnic group in Europe also have the same caste system? Why would only the Saxons retain it, and everyone (other Germans, Romans, Celts, etc) not retain it?
Doesnt make sense.
If I had led anyone to misunderstand that I thought that the Indo-Europeans had originated in India, I apologize, as I know they did not.
As for caste systems - it seems all Indo-European cultures had some sort of class division from probably the very beginning, though with differing degrees of rigidity. The Caste system in India was and is by far the worst.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Fogman
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14 Aug 2016, 7:35 pm
beneficii wrote:
The first confirmed reports of the existence of the Saxons was in 354 AD. In the mid-5th century, the Saxons split into 2 groups, the Anglo-Saxons who migrated to Britain, and the Old or Continental Saxons who remained on the continent.
In England during the Anglo-Saxon period, only Anglo-Saxons could carry weapons and access other privileges. The native Britons, as a lower caste, could not.
In Saxony by the time of Charlemagne, the Old Saxons had conquered a vast swath of what is today Germany and then established a rigid, well-defined caste system: Composed of at the top the edelingui (cf. Anglo-Saxon Æþeling) who were the warrior elite, the frilingi who had been allies, auxiliaries, and freed slaves of the Saxons, and at the bottom the lazzy who were the peoples who were conquered. There was a wide gulf between groups in terms of privilege and prestige, and weregild (money paid to compensate for someone's murder), where the edelingui were worth a lot and the lazzy very little. This kind of system has been noted to have been unusual for Europe at the time, and Charlemagne had to issue special laws to take it into account after he subjugated the Saxons.
In the New World in the 17th Century, the Anglo-Saxons imposed a racial cast system on the settlers, dividing them into castes of white (which was initially restricted to Anglo-Saxons, but now covers people of a high quantum of European descent) and negro (people of Subsaharan African descent), with the former being able to buy property, carry weapons, etc., while the latter was for the most part relegated to chattel slavery. This system has changed a lot since the 17th century, and it has spread worldwide, but continues to exist today in quiet, polite terms.
What is up with Saxon culture?
In England during the Anglo-Saxon period, only Anglo-Saxons could carry weapons and access other privileges. The native Britons, as a lower caste, could not.
In Saxony by the time of Charlemagne, the Old Saxons had conquered a vast swath of what is today Germany and then established a rigid, well-defined caste system: Composed of at the top the edelingui (cf. Anglo-Saxon Æþeling) who were the warrior elite, the frilingi who had been allies, auxiliaries, and freed slaves of the Saxons, and at the bottom the lazzy who were the peoples who were conquered. There was a wide gulf between groups in terms of privilege and prestige, and weregild (money paid to compensate for someone's murder), where the edelingui were worth a lot and the lazzy very little. This kind of system has been noted to have been unusual for Europe at the time, and Charlemagne had to issue special laws to take it into account after he subjugated the Saxons.
In the New World in the 17th Century, the Anglo-Saxons imposed a racial cast system on the settlers, dividing them into castes of white (which was initially restricted to Anglo-Saxons, but now covers people of a high quantum of European descent) and negro (people of Subsaharan African descent), with the former being able to buy property, carry weapons, etc., while the latter was for the most part relegated to chattel slavery. This system has changed a lot since the 17th century, and it has spread worldwide, but continues to exist today in quiet, polite terms.
What is up with Saxon culture?
In short, Feudalism Germanic style. As far as the Feudalism here was concerned, those who initially came here were by and large products of a feudal system. With land available, they more or less became landed gentry, or minor royalty.
In the feudal system, landowners owned the land, and collected the bounty associated with what that land cound produce,but had other people do the actual work, as they were more concerned with more royal things like backstabbing each other in the royal court.
If they had simply told the Indians that they were royalty because they owned the land and proposed that they Indians work the land without the benefit of profit from it, the Indians would have laughed at them, ran off into the wood and return at night to burn their houses down, with the owners still inside.
Indentured servants were just that, and after their period of servitude was up they were free to acquire land of their own and become 'royalty' in their own right. Hence importing serfs to work the land who would be readily identifiable to all as being 'serfs'.
_________________
When There's No There to get to, I'm so There!
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
14 Aug 2016, 7:56 pm
Fogman wrote:
beneficii wrote:
The first confirmed reports of the existence of the Saxons was in 354 AD. In the mid-5th century, the Saxons split into 2 groups, the Anglo-Saxons who migrated to Britain, and the Old or Continental Saxons who remained on the continent.
In England during the Anglo-Saxon period, only Anglo-Saxons could carry weapons and access other privileges. The native Britons, as a lower caste, could not.
In Saxony by the time of Charlemagne, the Old Saxons had conquered a vast swath of what is today Germany and then established a rigid, well-defined caste system: Composed of at the top the edelingui (cf. Anglo-Saxon Æþeling) who were the warrior elite, the frilingi who had been allies, auxiliaries, and freed slaves of the Saxons, and at the bottom the lazzy who were the peoples who were conquered. There was a wide gulf between groups in terms of privilege and prestige, and weregild (money paid to compensate for someone's murder), where the edelingui were worth a lot and the lazzy very little. This kind of system has been noted to have been unusual for Europe at the time, and Charlemagne had to issue special laws to take it into account after he subjugated the Saxons.
In the New World in the 17th Century, the Anglo-Saxons imposed a racial cast system on the settlers, dividing them into castes of white (which was initially restricted to Anglo-Saxons, but now covers people of a high quantum of European descent) and negro (people of Subsaharan African descent), with the former being able to buy property, carry weapons, etc., while the latter was for the most part relegated to chattel slavery. This system has changed a lot since the 17th century, and it has spread worldwide, but continues to exist today in quiet, polite terms.
What is up with Saxon culture?
In England during the Anglo-Saxon period, only Anglo-Saxons could carry weapons and access other privileges. The native Britons, as a lower caste, could not.
In Saxony by the time of Charlemagne, the Old Saxons had conquered a vast swath of what is today Germany and then established a rigid, well-defined caste system: Composed of at the top the edelingui (cf. Anglo-Saxon Æþeling) who were the warrior elite, the frilingi who had been allies, auxiliaries, and freed slaves of the Saxons, and at the bottom the lazzy who were the peoples who were conquered. There was a wide gulf between groups in terms of privilege and prestige, and weregild (money paid to compensate for someone's murder), where the edelingui were worth a lot and the lazzy very little. This kind of system has been noted to have been unusual for Europe at the time, and Charlemagne had to issue special laws to take it into account after he subjugated the Saxons.
In the New World in the 17th Century, the Anglo-Saxons imposed a racial cast system on the settlers, dividing them into castes of white (which was initially restricted to Anglo-Saxons, but now covers people of a high quantum of European descent) and negro (people of Subsaharan African descent), with the former being able to buy property, carry weapons, etc., while the latter was for the most part relegated to chattel slavery. This system has changed a lot since the 17th century, and it has spread worldwide, but continues to exist today in quiet, polite terms.
What is up with Saxon culture?
In short, Feudalism Germanic style. As far as the Feudalism here was concerned, those who initially came here were by and large products of a feudal system. With land available, they more or less became landed gentry, or minor royalty.
In the feudal system, landowners owned the land, and collected the bounty associated with what that land cound produce,but had other people do the actual work, as they were more concerned with more royal things like backstabbing each other in the royal court.
If they had simply told the Indians that they were royalty because they owned the land and proposed that they Indians work the land without the benefit of profit from it, the Indians would have laughed at them, ran off into the wood and return at night to burn their houses down, with the owners still inside.
Indentured servants were just that, and after their period of servitude was up they were free to acquire land of their own and become 'royalty' in their own right. Hence importing serfs to work the land who would be readily identifiable to all as being 'serfs'.
Medieval serfdom owed much not to just Germanic practice, but also to the Roman tradition of semi-free people working on the latifundia, or big Roman estates.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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