Trump is a massive sociopathic narcissist

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Kraichgauer
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03 Oct 2016, 5:02 am

Iamaparakeet wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Iamaparakeet wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Sociopath or not, Trump's ghost writer had had first hand knowledge of Trump, and I have no doubt that he's sincere about Trump's narcissistic personality.

Maybe, but can Johnson win? He'd be better than Trump and Billary, but he probably wont and whether through divided conservatives or outright election fraud Clinton is going to be roaming the White House once again.

I don't think Clinton needs to cheat to win, as Trump is making a victory for himself all that much less likely.
As for Johnson - I think he's interested in domestic policies like legalizing pot and prostitution, but has little knowledge of the world at large.

So it is sadly certain Hillary Clinton will reign again, this time directly rather than just through stupid Bill. If Trump's a "psychopath" just because he's a liar like all career politicians are, then Hillary trumps Trump and should be declared a super-psycho.

It goes beyond being a liar. Trump is unashamedly a narcissist, with complete lack of empathy for the suffering of others, and seems obsessed with striking out any even the smallest slight (hence, his three A.M. tweeting about that Miss Universe, Rosie O'Donnell, etc).

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Iamaparakeet
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03 Oct 2016, 10:49 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Iamaparakeet wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Iamaparakeet wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Sociopath or not, Trump's ghost writer had had first hand knowledge of Trump, and I have no doubt that he's sincere about Trump's narcissistic personality.

He might as well be troll, he even has the hairstyle, but I'm pretty sure Hillary is lacking empathy just as much, just she's a better liar and more able to censor herself.

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OdysseusNemo
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03 Oct 2016, 11:26 am

Iamaparakeet wrote:

I'm pretty sure Hillary is lacking empathy just as much, just she's a better liar and more able to censor herself.

I don't think Hillary's an honest person or a "good" person but I don't think she's a psychopath. I'm not absolutely sure of that but I've watched speeches and she seems to organically gain confidence, conviction, moral righteousness, moral disapproval where a normal person would. And yeah she could be faking that but there are other things. She carries herself with this air of forced composure, repression, and plastic smiles which looks like she's making herself be fake and machiavellian to be a successful politician. Psychopaths by contrast tend to be casual, fluid, relaxed, uninhibited. And like also she's expressed not liking how politics has made it harder to connect with her family.

I don't doubt she's a really ambitious person and not exactly at the top of the human empathy distribution. She started out into Barry Goldwater and Ayn Rand and her initial radical feminism was all about women's empowerment with the emphasis on the "power" (okay yeah I kinda like the woman on that one). So while I don't think she's psycho (it's a posture and eyes thing) and doesn't look at all like a socio I could be wrong -- I personally peg her as a "machiavellian" empath which is another "dark triad" type but I don't know if that's a thing so much as just a shrink's way of saying manipulative b***h queen

She's married to a man who yeah probably is a rapist -- and psycho researcher Kevin Dutton pegged Bill Clinton as one of the most psychopathic American presidents. Which isn't all bad cause he was pretty competent and popular and successful whatever you think of his policies (see Bill Clinton's composure -- that's more relaxed and psychopathic). I'm pretty sure Clinton knows all this and doesn't care -- I don't know what the Clinton relationship is like but it is pretty clear she doesn't have many ethical hard limits. So this isn't about saying Clinton is a good person (and again I'm not getting into policies)

What bother be about Trump isn't really so much his sociopathy/psychopathy so much as his absolutely gobsmacking levels of extreme pathological narcissism. Not having a conscience isn't so bad because almost all leaders have to suppress their consciences every day to do their jobs plus a conscience really isn't a very good guide to even moral decision making. But having a HUUUUUGE but super fragile ego and having to prove it and beating down people who say your hands are small and obsessing about it for f*****g years after that is an absolute trainwreck in a leader. And combine that with no conscience/moral intuitions and not living in reality and no cognitive restraints and you have a total f*****g disaster waiting to happen.

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Soulsparrer
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03 Oct 2016, 11:35 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Iamaparakeet wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Iamaparakeet wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Sociopath or not, Trump's ghost writer had had first hand knowledge of Trump, and I have no doubt that he's sincere about Trump's narcissistic personality.

And just out of curiosity, who's a US politician you'd say is full of warmth and sincere love for the common man? Do you think, Hillary, Bush, Romney, Kerry, McCain, Gore or any recent presidential candidate is?

Maybe the Dalai Lama is close to that, but he's not really a politician.

If I felt that strongly about it I just wouldn't vote or get involved about politics at all, because you're not going to find many people in power who don't become somewhat corrupted - even if Trump is all this and that, all that's really saying is that one turd in a toilet bowl is "more stinky" than the others.

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03 Oct 2016, 1:23 pm

Reading up on B19's recommended book, I am struck by Dr. Jacqueline West's description of Alpha Narcissism in our society, which she argues has dominated this country since it began, and she shows how it is part of our history and how it results in the inequalities we see today. Alpha Narcissism is the attitude of dominance and taking from those unable to resist, winning at all costs, and the will to action. Here is a passage showing America's history of Alpha Narcissism:

Quote:

If we step back, take a breath, and view the nation diagnostically, it is difficult not to see that Alpha dynamics have always been our predominant form of narcissism. The archetypal wellspring of raw action that lies in the roots of Alpha dynamics has fueled the U.S. since its birth. These dynamics served both the adventurous settlers and the subsequent inhabitants of these lands both creatively and destructively. Historically, they supplied the forceful energy required to explore and develop, to establish new communities in the face of innumerable, raw hardships. Plenty of robust power, a daring stride, and the courage to undertake demanding explorations, as gifts of Alpha dynamics, have clearly served us well. However, these dynamics have also inspired the settlers to ruthlessly take over the lands from their current Native American inhabitants--at the cost of so many deaths that this process is now quite openly seen as genocide. This raw archetypal energy also fueled a merciless industry of slavery that established a racist rift in the fabric of our nation that we are still struggling to repair. In the midst of all this, our western "heroes" slaughtered--truly slaughtered--innumerable herds of buffalo that roamed the prairies. To this day, these undeniably destructive early expressions of Alpha dynamics lie deep within American Narcissism, driving us widely and wildly into ruthless domination over and over.

Currently, this ruthless determination to dominate appears pervasive. There is a well-acknowledged and unprecedented gap between the "haves and have-nots" in terms of money, power, and the ability to obtain justice. Also, it is generally acknowledged that in our public interactions within government and economics and on the street, there is a significant increase in vituperative language, startling aggression, simmering violence, and the astonishing inequalities. In addition, we remain consistently intent upon waging numerous international wars that were persuasively presented initially as a determination to rid of the world of "evil" and bring democracy to all. Just a few years ago, the fear and despair generated by the boldness of these dynamics were expressed in numerous images of the apocalypse appearing in the news, films, Internet conversations, etc. And now our wars continue at an alarming rate, even though they are minimally recast as efforts to support the fights for freedom abroad. These aims are expressed with intrepid gallantry accompanied by indisputable assertions we have the strongest military in the world; we are, in all accounts, No. 1 without question. Sensing the expanding inflation and self-righteousness at the core of each of these national behaviors, many people recent expressed fear that we are becoming an authoritarian, if not a fascist, state. Fears of global disorder have "come home" and now include a deep dread that we might well lose our essential democratic value and be faced with totalitarian control. Forecasts of doom aside, it does seem apparent that Alpha dynamics not only fuel our country, but that they have us in their grip.

To me, this is the most interesting and scariest passage of all:

Quote:

Alpha dynamics also hold a tight grip on our various forms of national security. Perhaps more than anywhere else, when we perceive that our international security is in any way question, not only a determination to protect, but a fierce determination to dominate quickly reigns supreme. Within our boundaries, we see a penchant for punitive action applied to the disadvantaged, to someone whose vulnerability calls out the predator. Any number of other examples demonstrate that in American vulnerability, in any form, is soundly denied or devalued; it is consistently defended against.

I think this has the potential to become very destructive, with grave implications for the entire world. Alpha dynamics in their most extreme and destructive form held Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in their grip in the 1930s and early 1940s, in my view, leading to World War II. Both countries battled against vulnerability and national humiliation, leading to policies of rapid conquest and extermination in an attempt to deal with perceived threats and strengthen national security.

Back to America. There has long been synergy between the wealthy white elite and poor whites; it goes back to the 17th century. Basically, the deal goes involves poor whites separating themselves from black people and supporting the white elite in exchange for economic opportunity and being able to lord it over black people. To strengthen commitment to the deal, the elite put out propaganda of "We might as well oppress black people because if we don't they'll do the same to us."

You can see the Alpha dynamics described above in play here. As part of this deal, poor whites became the Beta class, with the white elites the Alpha class. It's about dominating to avoid being dominated, in their heads.

This deal has gone very well for both groups and opened up control of this land's bountiful resources by the white elite. But it has begun to fail, and we now need to adapt. But by joining with Trump, a member of the wealthy white elite, poor whites are, whether they realize it or not, seeking to bring back arrangement. This is what is meant by such phrases as "Take my country back" and "Make America great again"; it's about returning to that age-old tradition of white supremacy.

The poor whites, the white working class bemoan politicians not seeming to care about them anymore, but politicians never did. All this time, the politicians have served the elite. As soon as the elite obtained poor whites' acquiescence to the infernal deal described above, they were content to continue as things were. It was never about caring about poor whites; it was always about a game of divide-and-conquer, to keep the elite in charge of the resources and the workers from revolting. This divide-and-conquer strategy is why we have only developed near-universal health care in the past few years, it's why we don't have the kinds of institutions that other developed countries. It was never about freedom, but about control of resources and keeping it in the hands of the elite.

By joining with Trump, many poor whites think they're getting a good deal, but they're not. They should join with people of color and demand real change.

This article goes into further detail on the history of this infernal deal, tying it into current events:

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/ ... ump-trump/

We need to tamper down the Alpha dynamics in this country. It does us no good.

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Last edited by beneficii on 03 Oct 2016, 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Iamaparakeet
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03 Oct 2016, 1:24 pm

OdysseusNemo wrote:

Iamaparakeet wrote:

I'm pretty sure Hillary is lacking empathy just as much, just she's a better liar and more able to censor herself.

Prior to recently, Trump supported Hillary, and so he probably is just there to make sure she wins. It's all an act.

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03 Oct 2016, 1:27 pm

It's the age of the selfie! And my age to try to block omnipresent ugly pics of 70-year-olds. It's like people suddenly have a fetish with the elderly, or at least ones that act like teenage girls despite having absolutely none of the aesthetic.

B19
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03 Oct 2016, 1:36 pm

Ageism is ugly and offensive. You make it doubly so Mootoo by adding sexist nastiness to it, and you do yourself no favours by doing so.

OdysseusNemo
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04 Oct 2016, 5:39 am

beneficii wrote:

Hey thank you this is really interesting --could I please trouble you to post to where you got this?

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beneficii
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04 Oct 2016, 6:22 am

OdysseusNemo wrote:

beneficii wrote:

Hey thank you this is really interesting --could I please trouble you to post to where you got this?

Sure. It's from the book B19 recommended. Here's a quote of their post:

B19 wrote:

I read half of the essays in this book yesterday, which situate Trump in an age of narcissism. They are contextualised, as the title suggests, and express concern that support for him and others like him represent something far more dangerous than his impact on only USA politics and ethos, with reasoned observations from a range of complex thinkers:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3133 ... ent-danger

Just look for the chapter by Jacqueline West.

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Mootoo
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04 Oct 2016, 6:26 am

B19, I shouldn't have generalized it, but in stereotypical depictions of selfie-takers they're vain and possibly fast-talking, but beyond any traditional sexism in this election the male seems more female than the female. Not female positives (theoretically empathy)....

But sure, generalizations are useless...

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04 Oct 2016, 8:04 am

You guys should take a real class in early American history if you're interested in it. "Alpha narcissism" is a pretty ridiculous term and to apply the narcissist to so many people retroactively basically makes the term meaningless. What does narcissist even mean anymore? It's easy to oversimplify things in history and paint with broad brushes but knowing the context of things is 100% necessary to understanding history in my opinion.

There was a change that at the end of the end the 17th century, I've posted about this a number of times on here actually bringing up Bacon's Rebellion and the development of nationhood in this country. I agree the dynamics then definitely have had an effect thru the ages. Poor landless whites, indentured servants, and black slaves banded together against the colonial government for their failure to protect them from indian raids on the frontier and later against the corruption and incompetence of the colonial governor at the time who had to flee across the Potomac to neighboring Maryland when Bacon and his men burned Jamestown to the ground. Bacon dies of dysentery and his rebellion collapses, the aristocracy was shaken and moved away from the indentured servitude of whites and the more moderate version of African slavery to a much more brutal system of chattel slavery where the poor landless whites dependent on the system of slavery for their livelihoods(not a lot of need for labor when there are slaves, the only people that benefited from slavery were the slave owners themselves who made up a pretty small percentage of the population) and the fear of reprisals were constantly reinforced. The Mid-Atlantic colonies at the time were mostly grew tobacco which is not that labor intensive to harvest and white indentured servants worked and lived alongside their black slave counterparts, that is until after this rebellion failed.

I would say that the poor minorities of today are being taken advantage by this slave owning class as poor whites were in the past, the aristocracy is universally behind Hillary and waging a campaign of fear and prejudice against the white working class who they now blame for everything. Your life sucks because of racism! So the poorest and most maligned whites are responsible for the creation of the systemic and institutional racism? I know that's not right. Divide and conquer has always been their M.O. They make one side dependent on them as they have thru welfare and government assistance and are made to live in fear of this white boogeyman, they can never leave them or change their views for else their livelihoods are put at risk as their are a whole people that want to roll back all the progress they've made in the last 50 years(nevermind that the black family is in worst shape than ever, their neighborhoods like third world war zones, with no quality education or jobs in sight) How do minorities benefit from illegal immigration? How do minorities benefit teacher union politics? They even advocating for minorities to segregate themselves and to create 'safe spaces'. One thing to keep in mind about this aristocracy is that they have always detested the poor white population which they don't even consider the same race as them just as they detest blacks and other minorities, they are just tools to be utilized to them and to be dropped just as fast once it no longer serves their interests which is why the Democrats have abandoned working class whites and increasingly the black population in place for the exploding Hispanic one.

The people's choice is Trump, he is the candidate with the potential to actually challenge the system and bring about real change, one can liken Trump to a modern day Nathaniel Bacon as they have a number of parallels. Bacon was rich planter who lived on the frontier, there something of a not well defined border at the time separating colonists and indian territory who were being pushed west. It started because their borders were not protected and they did not feel safe but it morphed into a full on populist revolt against the failures and deaf ears of the aristocracy who ignored their pleas. Sounds familiar.

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04 Oct 2016, 8:13 am

Trump's supporters are sadly just ignorant people that hate democrats and/or Hillary that much, they refuse to think Trump has done any wrong.

There is plenty of evidence that Trump has bankrupt companies, not paid workers, insulted veterans, insulted people with disabilities, goes on rants to distract from his problems, etc. But somehow his supporters ignore all of this because it's not "that bad" compared to Hillary. Also according to them- its a media smear and the system is rigged.

Trump's whole nonsense with "I will close loopholes" is a bunch of crap. He will keep using loopholes and wont just magically close them when he becomes president. I'm really not sure how people think Trump will control the house+senate to do his bidding. When many democrats and republicans don't like Trump, they sure as hell wont agree to horrible unrealistic plans he has.

Last but not least- Trump is just a coward and is basically using this election to refill his pockets. He is scamming even more people this year because they think he can help.

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04 Oct 2016, 8:36 am

Jacoby

Okay I'm deliberately not getting into policy disputes -- not that those aren't important but my personal interest just happens to Trump's psychology (and the psychologies of other politicians in principle)

I just want to ask -- so you get that Trump doesn't care about you -- or anyone? That he has a huge lifelong record of exploiting/cheating people who worked for him? That if he gets into office he'll just take your praise and let you vent anger at useful targets but otherwise he'll just take wealth/power at your expense? Do you really think you have some hold on him? Trump will change what he says to whatever's convenient and there's no reason what he does and what he says have to have anything to do with each other.

It's like with Nigel Farage how he came out the day after the Brexit vote and admitted he lied about NHS funding to everyone? Does it matter to you that you're being lied to by someone you know is totally selfish and untrustworthy?

I can only look at you guys --- the emotional feeling Trump gives you is that good it just completely overrides common sense about the person standing in front of you. (BTW I'm just singling out Trump as an extreme example I think all political/religious/social movements with leader/follower dynamics do the same thing)

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04 Oct 2016, 8:36 am

I think the histrionics showed by some is evidence of a previously existing pathology, others have been whipped into a frenzy by the yellow journalism and straight up propaganda. You have partisans and those so invested in identity politics that they cannot hear outside their own echo chamber, these people do not wish for dialogue but rather to squash dissent.

Yes, Trump will be bound by the same laws and checks on power as Barack Obama or George W Bush. There is still two houses of congress, there is still a judicial branch, we still vote. None of that is changing and to freak out like it somehow won't be there the night after the election is just silly.

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04 Oct 2016, 8:56 am

OdysseusNemo wrote:

You attack Trump like this as if Hillary is better, do you believe she actually cares about you? Do you think she tells the truth 100% of the time? To attack Trump is imply difference when in my opinion Hillary is worse in all areas. I think Hillary is a much more elitist character who looks down her nose at her fellow Americans, I think she is criminally inclined and someone much more dependent on the system than Trump is. The Clinton's are worth over $200 million today, what did they do to ever earn that much money? It was influence peddling and straight up corruption on their part, how much do you think they'd be worth if Bill was never president? They'd still be living in Arkansas and probably would faced criminal prosecution for Whitewater which sent 15 other people to prison including Bill's successor as governor.

I think partisan beliefs are blinding too many people, they can't be good because they've been telling me the other side has been evil all my life! Look at the Clinton's record of scandals or even what they actually did in office, they are indefensible and nobody really tries to defend them either but rather just relentless smears against Trump. The most important topics in this election are Trump's taxes and offensive things that he said? No foreign policy, no talk about Obamacare, no talk about immigration, no talk about anything actually relevant, none of those topics are to Hillary's advantage so they don't get brought up. Hopefully that next debate is better but I have my doubts with it being on CNN but they're supposed to be taking questions from the viewers so we'll see. I've thoroughly explained why I support Trump and people try to say oh you just attack Hillary but it's not true, lets see someone justify voting for Hillary like I have for Trump. As I said before, certain people really soured on me once Bernie Sanders was out, bashing Hillary and the party establishment then was helpful but now it is perceived as threatening. I can literally look at posts from these same people praising me at the time who now have gone off the deep end and call me all sorts of terrible things.

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