Black Gangs in U.S.

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13 Feb 2017, 4:58 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:

Acting like black people have had time and opportunity to pull themselves up by the bootstraps simply ignores history. Segregation, Jim Crow, explicitly racist Social Security and Unemployment laws, and redlining are all well-documented facts of recent history. Every time people try to pull themselves up, plenty of people above them are trying to pull up the ladder and kick them back down again.

So, yeah. People need more agency. IN CONTEXT.

The point of what I am saying if there that is a culture of learned helplessness, it is called a poverty trap for a reason. Believe me when I say I grew up with a very progressive education and have been extensively taught about the racial history of the United States and the struggle for civil rights and I would consider it part of my special interest in American history because that's what it is, I have the perspective of seeing cause and effect having felt it personally.

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13 Feb 2017, 5:06 pm

Jacoby wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

There's a psychological phenomenon of learned helplessness. It isn't limited to any particular culture, but you could make a case for geographic centers. The problem with the racist undertones of this thread, which it now seems clear the OP intended, is exactly that projection of social phenomena on a culture, and a culture on skin color.

A better title for this post would be: Whatever happened to all that entertaining decontextualized footage of black people behaving badly? Why aren't they being presented for our entertainment anymore?

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Jacoby
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13 Feb 2017, 5:23 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

It has a context to me and what I said can apply to anybody from similar circumstance, we are all victims of the entirety of history up until the moment we are born and can take control of our destinies. I do not see these things as intrinsic or bloodline traits, I see them as a cultural or societal illness that can be cured if the right care is provided. However, the key to treating successfully treating any patient is for them to actually want to get better.

Last edited by Jacoby on 13 Feb 2017, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 5:25 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:

sonicallysensitive, you can take your tired, sad distractions, put them in your pipe, and smoke them. Google all your arguments to find where responding to them leads, because it's been done already a thousand times. Too bad, the tone of the first post made me think you might want a real discussion.

Cheeky bastard, aren't you?

I was genuinely asking RE the issue.

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13 Feb 2017, 5:35 pm

sonicallysensitive wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

Cheeky bastard, aren't you?

I was genuinely asking RE the issue.

Nonsense. The only real question you asked in your reply was what does MO mean. It's modus operandi, or way of operating. I used it because it's legal jargon, and points at the basis for my claim.

You'll find someone on the left still clueless enough to engage in your back and forth, I have no doubt.

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sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 5:45 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:

sonicallysensitive wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

Cheeky bastard, aren't you?

I was genuinely asking RE the issue.

...So not being familiar with the abbreviation for Modus Operandi implies I don't understand the term and have no real interest?

I asked a number of real questions.

The interest in this is genuine. There appears to be a complete shutdown of commentary on the issue on TV when it used to be hot topic, and I'm trying to ascertain why.

You've made many assumptions RE my motives. If you think this is some form of anti-black issue, I'd be far more direct.

Given you've made your mind up and failed to comment on the points I've raised, I'll address some other posts.

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13 Feb 2017, 5:48 pm

Jacoby wrote:

The developmental effects of poverty are pretty well-documented, but not on the level of a randomized clinical trial. That's about to change. There's a large experiment underway in the US right now involving thousands of poor people.

Poverty physically changes the structure of peoples brains in ways that makes them more likely to cause problems in society. The effects are reversible, but regrettably the most effective interventions have to happen before age 2.

I disagree about your pathologizing poverty, though. Poverty create pathologies, and trying to pin that on a culture or akin color leads nowhere useful. Different poor communities have different problems other than poverty, generally with a long historical basis, from mountain people to urban people.

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sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 5:51 pm

...But I will address this post, and will do my utmost to keep it respectful.

jrjones9933 wrote:

I really don't see the problem of classification in this manner.

It isn't the only form of classification, of course. People could be classified not according to skin colour etc, but according to income etc.

I ask RE skin colour as that was the basis of the framing i.e. 'black gang kills 6'.

Which isn't a lie if a black gang kills 6.

Of course, the media could also frame the issue by any other valid means e.g. 'unemployed gang members kill 6'.

jrjones9933 wrote:

A better title for this post would be: Whatever happened to all that entertaining decontextualized footage of black people behaving badly? Why aren't they being presented for our entertainment anymore?

Ergo if footage of someone raping someone is shown it is decontextualised if it also doesn't mention history, socio-economic background etc?

Breaking the law is breaking the law.

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13 Feb 2017, 5:53 pm

sonicallysensitive wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

Fox especially sensationalizes violence by black people,

I don't watch Fox so can't comment. But it couldn't be that blacks are more violent?

Just in case any third party observer sees our interaction and thinks I'm being unreasonable, I'll highlight this precious comment. Aren't you cute, with your innocent little inquiring mind?

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sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 6:02 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:

sonicallysensitive wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

Fox especially sensationalizes violence by black people,

I don't watch Fox so can't comment. But it couldn't be that blacks are more violent?

Just in case any third party observer sees our interaction and thinks I'm being unreasonable, I'll highlight this precious comment. Aren't you cute, with your innocent little inquiring mind?

Nonsense.

See here - https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... s/table-43

Murder rates higher with blacks, despite the demographic.

I already alluded to sex crimes being higher with whites.

The bottom of the table also clearly shows that as a percentage, whites are arrested far more.

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13 Feb 2017, 6:11 pm

And looking closer at demographics:

US white population = 197,000,000
US white crimes = 5,800,000 (I'm rounding up)

US black population = 38,000,000
US black crime = 2,200,000

If you're white, there's a 2.9% likelihood you'll be involved in criminal activity.
If you're black, there's a 5.8% likelihood you'll be involved in criminal activity.

Blacks are twice as likely to be involved in crime than whites. Fact.

And this is looking at all crime, as opposed to only violent crime. I'm more than 5 times more likely to be murdered by a black person than a white person.

My statement stands, and contains no racial bias.

sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 7:08 pm

And to conclude my discussion with yourself:

I refer back to yourself raising the issue of Fox news, and their 'sensationalising' of violence by black people:

jrjones9933 wrote:

Fox especially sensationalizes violence by black people

The hard data tells anyone living in the USA that they are more than 5 times more likely to be killed by a black than by a white.

Why, then, would Fox commenting on violence by black people be a form of sensationalism when it is nothing other than brute fact?

If I were to visit the US, I'd avoid areas with a high black population. Why? To reduce the likelihood of my being murdered.

This isn't racism, but pure common sense based on data.

If I were a birdwatcher and a specific species were 5 times more likely to visit a certain lake than a certain other lake, visiting the likelier lake over the less likely lake doesn't make me 'lakeist', it just makes me more accurate in predicting likelihood of occurrence.

Statistics prove blacks are more violent. Fact.

NOT racism on my behalf.

Back on topic please RE media coverage.

tick
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13 Feb 2017, 7:13 pm

Can you imagine if this same sort of discussion was about autistics? And someone can find papers out there with titles like this "Template to Perpetrate: An Update on Violence in Autism Spectrum Disorder" and this "Violent crime in Asperger syndrome: the role of psychiatric comorbidity." and this lovely headline, "New Study Shows 92% Of Convicted Murderers Suffer From Aspergers Syndrome".

I think one should be pretty careful with this sort of thing. African Americans are not statistics and statistics can be twisted anyway anybody wants in order to "prove" what they want.

sonicallysensitive
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13 Feb 2017, 7:36 pm

tick wrote:

I wouldn't see anything wrong at all with such a headline.

If the above were true, I'd avoid those with Aspergers. Simple.

One shouldn't be somehow afraid to state facts simply because those facts may offend. Nor should one be afraid to state facts when the person stating the facts is accused of playing a 'race card', directly or otherwise.

I care zero if I offend blacks. If they are offended, they should stop killing.

Just as I care zero if I offend whites by stating they are more likely to molest someone. They should stop molesting.

And - I raised the facts as I was challenged on the issue RE my motives for creating the thread. Which, as can be seen, are perfectly justified, given the statistics.

I'd actually like for this thread to be with regards the subject i.e. media coverage. If it could be pulled back on topic, it would be appreciated.

tick
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13 Feb 2017, 7:51 pm

" Statistics prove blacks are more violent. Fact."
That statement looks racist to me. It's one thing to discuss crime it's another thing to see statements in a thread like that. Blacks are NOT more violent! Sonicallysensitive that is a horrid statement and everyone, black or white or whatever, should be offended.

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13 Feb 2017, 8:00 pm

Jacoby wrote:

It's always been real to me, I grew up around it and it breaks my heart thinking about the people who's lives were led astray & ruined and those that simply never even had a chance which is depressingly so many of my peers.

Yeah, I can totally relate----that's why I sat here with my eyes full of tears, as "my" Baltimore burned, during the riots, after Freddie Gray got killed. I just kept sitting here, watching everything on TV, and thinking that I wish I could do / say something to stop them looting, or to convince them to put-down the matches, or whatever. I can imagine they saw it as their chance----their chance to get ahead for a change----their chance to stick it to the fat cats, etc.----but, the way *I* saw it, was that they were hurting, and I wanted to help.

Jacoby wrote:

This is a community that is in a state of collapse on all levels and while they need help it is also a two way street, people deride the idea of 'pulling yourself up from your bootstraps' because so many people are not capable of doing on there own and I understand that but there still needs to be desire for independence, a desire for bettering one's self, a desire to rise above regardless the circumstances they were born into.

EXACTLY!! This is OFTEN my argument----if it was absolutely impossible for any poor people to make it out, there would be NO Oprah, Drew Carey, Jim Carrey, Hillary Swank, Jay-Z, Sean "P. Diddy" Combs, Billy Bob Thornton, Sonia Sotomayor, Viola Davis, J-Lo, Dr. Phil, Eminem, Wesley Snipes, and many, MANY more. ALL of these people grew-up poor----IIRC, Jim Carrey's family had to live in a tent, for awhile; and, Billy-Bob Thornton's family lived in a shack with no plumbing / electricity----and, almost ALL of these people, were raised by single mothers!! Somebody's mother----I forget who it was; Lil' Kim, maybe, or Fitty Cent----the mother sold cocaine, because the father left, and she had to support her family, somehow. These people desired to get OUT, and WORKED for it!!

It's much, MUCH easier for people to say "Oh, whoa, is me", and not do anything about it----it's MUCH harder to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but it CAN be done. IMO, when people who DON'T make it, get angry at others who DO make it, it is because they know that that person's accomplishments, make THEIR arguments of "I can't do it", less-likely to hold water.

Jacoby wrote:

We are all victims of circumstance, some more than than others, but what truly makes us human is the desire to rise above that. We have to ask ourselves, what is missing from America? How are our communities suffering? What is lacking is more than just simply economics, it's something social and spiritual too that we've lost along the way. We need to reassert our values and familial bonds, people need a purpose in this world and a reason to feel connected and it can't simply be one fear or anger.

Jacoby wrote:

The noble savage is racist cultural trope that I think unfortunately manifests itself where good intentions may lie but it blinds people to reality and leaves them vulnerable to empower the very people that torment those they think they're helping. So when I hear somebody speak about how gangs are just communities expressing resistance to persecution then I can only turn my head in disgust, what you are doing is essentially abandoning the good people to these criminals and abusers who could care less about communities. It's not the KKK and Neo-Nazis that minorities should be afraid of in their neighborhoods, they're bad guys don't get me wrong but it's not because of them that they have to live fear and borderline military occupation.

I've spoken about my opinions on the drug war many times and I think taking the power away from these criminal gangs would go a long way in liberating these neighborhoods, far too many people are in prison for totally crimes where they themselves are the victims while we have far too much tolerance for the real victimizers in our society. There is so many different levels to this, it's not just one thing and it's fixed. Even when fixed, the wounds are going to take a long time to heal but this can only be achieved as a oneness as Americans first not whatever identity group you box yourself into.

QFT

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