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Do you think there is REALLY freedom without law?
Yes 43%  43%  [ 6 ]
No 57%  57%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 14

lostonearth35
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27 Feb 2017, 10:54 pm

If there weren't any laws, I wouldn't feel free to walk outside even in broad daylight. I wouldn't be free to cross the street unless I was very suicidal. I wouldn't be free in my own home. I'd probably be free to take whatever I wanted in a store without paying for it, but the stores would probably be empty because everyone else got to it first. Anyone could just walk right in and assault or murder me, or completely destroy my apartment and take whatever they thought was nice enough to steal.

So I think since I'm law-abiding I have more freedom, but no one is completely free. Especially people who are in jail for stealing and murdering and committing arson and drunk driving and drug dealing and abuse and...



techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2017, 11:24 pm

I actually don't see anything ominous about the linked article in the original post. They used a reference to the Levitical laws in reference to the topic of laws, as a kind of law, and they did it briefly at that. It's a set of cultural laws practiced under Judaism, it's at least indirectly or partially related to the way we've come to practice our particular strain of humanism in the west (and equally it's heavily indebted to the concepts of key Greek and Roman philosophers) so there's nothing insane or inherently fundamentalist about bringing it up in that context.

I'm going to suggest something and it may or may not be controversial, I think it's just more likely that we tend not to talk like this and in that respect I'm going to say something particularly astringent. The idea of true 'freedom' is as vacuous as free will. More than likely we're living in a full-determinist rubric so the thing is a whole-cloth fiction.

What I think people are getting at when they talk about freedom is the rights to options that cause minimal friction to their fundamental decency. Then again we've dialed in on the traits that we want to enforce for having a better society. You're absolutely free, in a sense, to do anything at all, just that you're equally bound to the consequences of those actions, as well as the social and economic contracts that you break, which colloquially at least the right to rake in consequences we tend not to define as a freedom but like to (I think somewhat erroneously) refer to the consequences themselves as the limits of our freedom. We're also free to blow our political, legal, and economic systems up and debate what regions of the US would turn toward which type of dictatorship.

All of that said there's technically no freedom with law or without law. It's just that, with law done right, you have a pretty good chance of living in a decidedly better society when compared to the alternatives if you're calculating better on some combination of the least human suffering meeting the least destruction and secondary/tertiary effects on the settings and debts to future generations possible. Strangely freedom and less suffering aren't necessarily the same thing. When freedom means liberal government that also doesn't mean freedom, it just means a set of rules that the majority will be able to navigate and comply with to the most measured and mitigatable degrees of coercion whereas in a dictatorship there's one domineering set of rules that might fit some fine and crush the life out of just as many people and it's largely that lack of ability for each person to pick the basket of costs and benefits that best suit them that we call tyranny as opposed to freedom.

I don't know that many people will find this post satisfying, it's me crafting non-shiny things again, but it seems like it would have to be the most likely scenario to be true.


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jrjones9933
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27 Feb 2017, 11:41 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
If there weren't any laws, I wouldn't feel free to walk outside even in broad daylight. I wouldn't be free to cross the street unless I was very suicidal. I wouldn't be free in my own home. I'd probably be free to take whatever I wanted in a store without paying for it, but the stores would probably be empty because everyone else got to it first. Anyone could just walk right in and assault or murder me, or completely destroy my apartment and take whatever they thought was nice enough to steal.

So I think since I'm law-abiding I have more freedom, but no one is completely free. Especially people who are in jail for stealing and murdering and committing arson and drunk driving and drug dealing and abuse and...

I don't think many of the people smashing up Starbucks windows and burning limousines want the kind of anarchy you describe, although almost certainly a few just want to act like that all the time. Certainly, none of the other activist or philosophical anarchists want anything like that. It's basically people who have never experienced an anarchic setting, raised in an authoritarian world, who harbor fears like yours.

Lots of people spend time in campgrounds with various belongings left in their tents, and theft is as rare as it is anywhere. In places with a lot of freethinkers, anarchists, and potheads, theft is nearly nonexistent. The fact is, the police make almost no difference when it comes to theft. They only investigate after the fact, and clearance rates are low unless there's a crime spree. With any kind of homicide, it gets much more serious. Why? Because people are much more serious about it, whether or not they choose to involve the police (and there are those who don't).

Essentially, anarchy is what happens most of the time, when people don't need or even think about the police or the courts. People care about their reputations. Even people with a reputation for violence to maintain select their targets carefully; random violence is incredibly rare.

I can't tell you how to feel about going out into the world; I have had no reason to force myself to leave the apartment lately, and often I have chosen not to. I perceive the experience as anxiety looking for a target, and the unpredictable world outside is a target-rich environment, but the anxiety is in me, not out there, and I know that from statistics.


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jrjones9933
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27 Feb 2017, 11:58 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I actually don't see anything ominous about the linked article in the original post. They used a reference to the Levitical laws in reference to the topic of laws, as a kind of law, and they did it briefly at that. It's a set of cultural laws practiced under Judaism, it's at least indirectly or partially related to the way we've come to practice our particular strain of humanism in the west (and equally it's heavily indebted to the concepts of key Greek and Roman philosophers) so there's nothing insane or inherently fundamentalist about bringing it up in that context.

I'm going to suggest something and it may or may not be controversial, I think it's just more likely that we tend not to talk like this and in that respect I'm going to say something particularly astringent. The idea of true 'freedom' is as vacuous as free will. More than likely we're living in a full-determinist rubric so the thing is a whole-cloth fiction.

What I think people are getting at when they talk about freedom is the rights to options that cause minimal friction to their fundamental decency. Then again we've dialed in on the traits that we want to enforce for having a better society. You're absolutely free, in a sense, to do anything at all, just that you're equally bound to the consequences of those actions, as well as the social and economic contracts that you break, which colloquially at least the right to rake in consequences we tend not to define as a freedom but like to (I think somewhat erroneously) refer to the consequences themselves as the limits of our freedom. We're also free to blow our political, legal, and economic systems up and debate what regions of the US would turn toward which type of dictatorship.

All of that said there's technically no freedom with law or without law. It's just that, with law done right, you have a pretty good chance of living in a decidedly better society when compared to the alternatives if you're calculating better on some combination of the least human suffering meeting the least destruction and secondary/tertiary effects on the settings and debts to future generations possible. Strangely freedom and less suffering aren't necessarily the same thing. When freedom means liberal government that also doesn't mean freedom, it just means a set of rules that the majority will be able to navigate and comply with to the most measured and mitigatable degrees of coercion whereas in a dictatorship there's one domineering set of rules that might fit some fine and crush the life out of just as many people and it's largely that lack of ability for each person to pick the basket of costs and benefits that best suit them that we call tyranny as opposed to freedom.

I don't know that many people will find this post satisfying, it's me crafting non-shiny things again, but it seems like it would have to be the most likely scenario to be true.

You usually have a point, but I can't disregard the context and look at the article in isolation. There are risks of people being enslaved and such without laws, but people have their freedom taken away by laws at an alarming rate.

Reading up on Bannon's vision of anarchy as some savage intestinal cleanse for society does worry me. It's another case of the "kill or expel them all" side having coalesced around their ethics, while the other side squabbles about whether or not we can punch them in the throat. Those in the middle will, I guess, be in the middle of it.


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28 Feb 2017, 12:34 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I actually don't see anything ominous about the linked article in the original post. They used a reference to the Levitical laws in reference to the topic of laws, as a kind of law, and they did it briefly at that. It's a set of cultural laws practiced under Judaism, it's at least indirectly or partially related to the way we've come to practice our particular strain of humanism in the west (and equally it's heavily indebted to the concepts of key Greek and Roman philosophers) so there's nothing insane or inherently fundamentalist about bringing it up in that context.

I'm going to suggest something and it may or may not be controversial, I think it's just more likely that we tend not to talk like this and in that respect I'm going to say something particularly astringent. The idea of true 'freedom' is as vacuous as free will. More than likely we're living in a full-determinist rubric so the thing is a whole-cloth fiction.

What I think people are getting at when they talk about freedom is the rights to options that cause minimal friction to their fundamental decency. Then again we've dialed in on the traits that we want to enforce for having a better society. You're absolutely free, in a sense, to do anything at all, just that you're equally bound to the consequences of those actions, as well as the social and economic contracts that you break, which colloquially at least the right to rake in consequences we tend not to define as a freedom but like to (I think somewhat erroneously) refer to the consequences themselves as the limits of our freedom. We're also free to blow our political, legal, and economic systems up and debate what regions of the US would turn toward which type of dictatorship.

All of that said there's technically no freedom with law or without law. It's just that, with law done right, you have a pretty good chance of living in a decidedly better society when compared to the alternatives if you're calculating better on some combination of the least human suffering meeting the least destruction and secondary/tertiary effects on the settings and debts to future generations possible. Strangely freedom and less suffering aren't necessarily the same thing. When freedom means liberal government that also doesn't mean freedom, it just means a set of rules that the majority will be able to navigate and comply with to the most measured and mitigatable degrees of coercion whereas in a dictatorship there's one domineering set of rules that might fit some fine and crush the life out of just as many people and it's largely that lack of ability for each person to pick the basket of costs and benefits that best suit them that we call tyranny as opposed to freedom.

I don't know that many people will find this post satisfying, it's me crafting non-shiny things again, but it seems like it would have to be the most likely scenario to be true.

You usually have a point, but I can't disregard the context and look at the article in isolation. There are risks of people being enslaved and such without laws, but people have their freedom taken away by laws at an alarming rate.

Reading up on Bannon's vision of anarchy as some savage intestinal cleanse for society does worry me. It's another case of the "kill or expel them all" side having coalesced around their ethics, while the other side squabbles about whether or not we can punch them in the throat. Those in the middle will, I guess, be in the middle of it.


Bannon apparently thinks that this "cleansing" - which is a terrifying thought in itself, as just who is supposed to be cleansed - will stop when done. But when something ugly like that gets started, it just doesn't stop, and goes off into unintended directions. Robespierre hadn't expected to end up in the guillotine with his head lopped off, and neither will Bannon.


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28 Feb 2017, 3:24 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
We have laws to protect people and to keep everyone safe, laws are always there for a reason. If everyone had morals and used common sense, we wouldn't even have them but sadly I think lot of people are really that stupid so we have laws for it. Or not only are they stupid, maybe lot of people don't care so we need laws.

It's arrogance to think you know how people should live.

Then what's stopping bad people from doing bad things to you and others without the law? As a matter of fact, I do have the right to insist that others don't have the right to steal from me, or kill my family and friends.

The law doesn't stop bad people. If it did, then we wouldn't need jails.

You don't have any right to ask anything of anyone.



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28 Feb 2017, 4:04 am

The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
We have laws to protect people and to keep everyone safe, laws are always there for a reason. If everyone had morals and used common sense, we wouldn't even have them but sadly I think lot of people are really that stupid so we have laws for it. Or not only are they stupid, maybe lot of people don't care so we need laws.

It's arrogance to think you know how people should live.

So are you in favour of living in a society where there are no consequences for committing murder and enslaving people?

There's always consequences.

Humans don't need laws to serve justice to murderers.

That how we have the term "frontier justice".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_justice

Also, the term "jury nullification" is relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Where the jury can arbitrarily nullify the law, so built into the legal system is the power to abandon the law.



techstepgenr8tion
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28 Feb 2017, 6:51 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
You usually have a point, but I can't disregard the context and look at the article in isolation. There are risks of people being enslaved and such without laws, but people have their freedom taken away by laws at an alarming rate.

I guess where I'm coming from with that is more like this. The guy who wrote the article and guys like him are rustic, they've always been like that and would be with or without a platform. The philosophic point that was made as valid and it probably not something most people would disagree with unless they fixate on what they think of the author. As for the likelihood of dominionists taking over the country and turning this into a totalitarian Christian theocracy, we have about as much chance of that as we have of being turned into an Islamic caliphate. Too many people know the literal read of religion is BS for civil liberties to be blown away by in that sense.

jrjones9933 wrote:
Reading up on Bannon's vision of anarchy as some savage intestinal cleanse for society does worry me. It's another case of the "kill or expel them all" side having coalesced around their ethics, while the other side squabbles about whether or not we can punch them in the throat. Those in the middle will, I guess, be in the middle of it.

The middle, particularly the classic John Stewart Mill type liberals, are actually fighting back pretty well. You'd probably want to familiarize yourself with Jonathan Haidt and Jordan Peterson for example.

I'd agree that the left has gotten strange and they've given a significant invitation for the right to get strange but the right won and it looks like things are settling in more toward business as usual. For the #literallyhitler hyperventilating that I've seen though about the Trump administration I'm not seeing actions from the Whitehouse that would justify it. I think some people have argued that Trump is anti-globalist/nationalist and that he'll try to raise the barriers to capital flight but he's clearly not a National Front member.


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28 Feb 2017, 4:08 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
We have laws to protect people and to keep everyone safe, laws are always there for a reason. If everyone had morals and used common sense, we wouldn't even have them but sadly I think lot of people are really that stupid so we have laws for it. Or not only are they stupid, maybe lot of people don't care so we need laws.

It's arrogance to think you know how people should live.

Then what's stopping bad people from doing bad things to you and others without the law? As a matter of fact, I do have the right to insist that others don't have the right to steal from me, or kill my family and friends.

The law doesn't stop bad people. If it did, then we wouldn't need jails.

You don't have any right to ask anything of anyone.



The law certainly puts bad people away from hurting others when caught, tried, and convicted. Otherwise, a criminal could go scot free, all the while stealing, assaulting, raping, and killing without consequence.
As for the concept of frontier justice in your next post: that was dealt out without any sort of fair trial, without the respondent given the right to defense. And at times, the people behind the lynching were wrong - case in point, the lynching of Sheriff Henry Plummer in Montana, with scores of other men. While there was apparently outlaw activity in the area, it seems the lynching party were overtaken with mass hysteria, being told by their leaders that literally hundreds of people no one knew about had been robbed and killed by outlaws (how they knew about the unknown hundreds is anyone's guess). Only a few years ago, the Montana legislature had granted Sheriff Henry Plummer a full pardon, as there was zero evidence he had actually been a leader of a gang of desperadoes. Incidentally, one of the men who had been lynched was a Mexican immigrant who had had both his feet amputated years before! At least the vigilantes had conceded his lynching had probably been a mistake. When the US army had arrived in Montana territory, they restored order - - by suppressing vigilante violence.
And as far as frontier justice was concerned, most of the men hanged by vigilantes were cattle and horse thieves, a thing that had continue to happen in rural Washington state, just a decade or two before my Dad had been born there in 1921. Was any number of horses and cattle worth a human life?


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28 Feb 2017, 11:52 pm

I think freedom is irrelevant to human existence. It is an idea that distracts from that which is relevant.

The way I understand law is that it is more than the collective values of a public (regarding consequences for things like murder). Law is rooted in the religious attribution of rights that exceed those of human beings to a unitary governing body.

Direct democratic determination of collective response seems to me like an absolutely valid mode of operation, while the expression of that collective response is also direct. It is through the disconnecting of determination and expression from the public - by republic representation - that throwing away individual integrity becomes acceptable in societies.

If one member of a community goes on a child-raping spree, it is useful to that community for any individuals within that community who think that behavior is abhorrent to do whatever they see fit to stop that behavior. It is also useful to that community for any individuals who think that behavior is acceptable to defend it in whatever way they see fit. Through this form of direct responsibility to the community you are a part of, the values of individuals will not only necessarily align with the values of their neighbors - either through eradication of minority value systems, eradication of majority value systems, or negotiation between value systems resulting in homogenization - but will also be explored to much greater extents by the individuals themselves, as the behavioral decisions related to their value systems are realistically applicable and experienced.

What is important to avoid is surrogating the expression of individual values through avoidant submission to a perceived "higher power" such as a government or god.

Through interconnected diversity and processes of selection comes strength.