Page 2 of 6 [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

JohnPowell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2016
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,806
Location: Palestine

08 Apr 2017, 10:28 am

You seem to have done some mental gymnastics there. And it's your theory that he's captured and let them go to play a game.


_________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

08 Apr 2017, 1:33 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Pro-trump americans seem to be very ill-informed on the key role Assad played in the emergence and building of Isis.

Al Assad has a long history of capturing islamists then releasing them for no reason only to become stronger and better armed.

Read the history of Fatah el Islam and its founder Shaker el Abssi for instance.

From a wikileaks cable:
“In principle, we don’t attack or kill them immediately,” Gen. Ali Mamluk, now Assad’s top intelligence advisor, said of al Qaeda operatives. “Instead, we embed ourselves in them, and only at the opportune moment do we move.”

Al Assad's aim was to make his propaganda matches reality: to convince the world that it's either him or the terrorists.
And he's suceeding at that.

It's irrelevant if the choice is literally him or the terrorists which it is, there is no moderate opposition force on the ground doing any of the fighting so they wouldn't get any seats at the negotiating table. It doesn't matter if there moderate individuals of Syrian origin if they cannot form a real opposition inside the country.

If there was to be an intervention to end this conflict it would take a grand bargain between the US/Russia/other world powers that would erase the fake borders of Sykes-Picot and have a post-WWII like occupation with deIslamification like deNazification. It's impossible, that would be seen as a war against Islam and a crusade and it sort of would be.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Apr 2017, 4:42 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
You seem to have done some mental gymnastics there. And it's your theory that he's captured and let them go to play a game.


I think the gentleman from Lebanon is spot on. Are we supposed to embrace a monster like Assad, whose tyranny had doubtlessly helped spawn ISIS?


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,671
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

08 Apr 2017, 5:09 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
You seem to have done some mental gymnastics there. And it's your theory that he's captured and let them go to play a game.


Except I am not inventing anything.... let's check some facts, shall we?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 29274.html

Quote:
In 2003, the Damascus regime was panicked that then-US President George W. Bush, after his victory over Saddam Hussein, would have his troops continue into Syria to topple Assad as well. Thus, in the ensuing years, Syrian intelligence officials organized the transfer of thousands of radicals from Libya, Saudi Arabia and Tunisia to al-Qaida in Iraq. Ninety percent of the suicide attackers entered Iraq via the Syrian route. A strange relationship developed between Syrian generals, international jihadists and former Iraqi officers who had been loyal to Saddam -- a joint venture of deadly enemies, who met repeatedly to the west of Damascus.


Quote:
At the time, the primary aim was to make the lives of the Americans in Iraq hell. Ten years later, Bashar Assad had a different motive to breathe new life into the alliance: He wanted to sell himself to the world as the lesser of several evils. Islamist terror, the more gruesome the better, was too important to leave it up to the terrorists. The regime's relationship with Islamic State is -- just as it was to its predecessor a decade prior -- marked by a completely tactical pragmatism. Both sides are trying to use the other in the assumption that it will emerge as the stronger power, able to defeat the discrete collaborator of yesterday. Conversely, IS leaders had no problem receiving assistance from Assad's air force, despite all of the group's pledges to annihilate the apostate Shiites. Starting in January 2014, Syrian jets would regularly -- and exclusively -- bomb rebel positions and headquarters during battles between IS and rebel groups.
In battles between IS and rebels in January 2014, Assad's jets regularly bombed only rebel positions, while the Islamic State emir ordered his fighters to refrain from shooting at the army. It was an arrangement that left many of the foreign fighters deeply disillusioned; they had imaged jihad differently.



And
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/sy ... 689cb52eea

^^ People completely ignore the fact that this was an early reaction to the protests movement and well before the armed conflict part of the protests began between FSA and Assad.

And:
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/proje ... d-islamic/

After months of anti-Government protests in 2011, many Islamist prisoners were released in several amnesties.[31] Zahran Alloush, Abu Shadi Aboud (brother of Hassan Aboud[32]) and Ahmed Abu Issa were some of the more prominent prisoners released from the prison. After their release, many took up arms against the regime and became leaders of Islamist rebel groups including Jaysh al-Islam, Ahrar ash-Sham and Suqour al-Sham Brigade in the Syrian Civil War.

There have repeatedly been reports on inhumane conditions for detainees in Sednaya (as well as other Syrian prisons), ranging from torture and malnutrition to spontaneous executions without fair trials.

Quote:
After months of anti-Government protests in 2011, many Islamist prisoners were released in several amnesties.[31] Zahran Alloush, Abu Shadi Aboud (brother of Hassan Aboud[32]) and Ahmed Abu Issa were some of the more prominent prisoners released from the prison. After their release, many took up arms against the regime and became leaders of Islamist rebel groups including Jaysh al-Islam, Ahrar ash-Sham and Suqour al-Sham Brigade in the Syrian Civil War.

There have repeatedly been reports on inhumane conditions for detainees in Sednaya (as well as other Syrian prisons), ranging from torture and malnutrition to spontaneous executions without fair trials.[1][33][34][35]

Seventy-five per cent of people who go into Sednaya do not come out alive. It is a field court, where most judges are from the secret police.- A Syrian lawyer working with prisoners in Hama

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sednaya_Prison



Just lemme give you a hint: NO one just gets "released" from a Syrian political prison, just like that, unless there's something in return.


On Fath-el Islam (just so you can understand the strategic pattern):
Quote:
Syrian authorities arrested al-Abssi in 2000 and sentenced him to three years in prison on charges of smuggling weapons and ammunition between Jordan and Syria.[14][15] The government later released him. He went to Iraq following the U.S.-led invasion in 2003 and fought alongside groups affiliated with al-Qaeda. He is said to have become friends with a number of al-Qaeda leaders there.[14]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_al-Islam


More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_U ... n_Movement

This movement had a long history of terrorist activity, and even clashed with the Syrian army at times, but now they're allies:
Quote:
The post-war years[edit]
Aside from rare instances of mild criticism, Sheikh Shaaban and the IUM were careful not to antagonize the Syrian authorities, particularly after Syria defeated their militia in late 1986. He spoke favorably of the Syrian military presence in Lebanon as a framework for unified, armed action against Israel,[19] a policy which was continued by its successors in the 1990s.

The Movement remains politically active, led by the Secretary-General Sheikh Minqara, a member of the pro-Syrian March 8 alliance.[20] In 2005, the IUM joined the Islamic Labor Front, an alliance of several Islamic parties and figures in Lebanon. The movement's militia re-emerged, this time in support of the Syrian Government in Tripoli. However, after a couple of years, the Lebanese Army virtually crushed the militia in a major security crackdown in 2014.[21]


And
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Labor_Front

The Islamic Labor Front (ar:jebhat el aamal el islamy), founded in 2006, is a gathering of several Islamic parties and personalities in Lebanon led by Sunni Daaiya Fathi Yakan.

Quote:
The gathering merged out of a conflict inside the Islamic group on being part of the anti-Syrian March 14 Alliance or the pro-Syrian March 8 Alliance.

The ILF is currently allied to Hezbollah and is part of the opposition. One of its members, Sheikh Saadeddine Ghaya, was killed in Tripoli in November 2013.[1]


Who was this Fathi Yakan who had been supported by the Syrian regime? He was a 'preacher' for the MB in Lebanon

Quote:
Wrongly attributed to being the founder of al Jemaah Islamiyah, Fathi Yakan is,
however, its grandfather and main ideologue.23 Yakan is a 73-year-old veteran Islamist
scholar and da’iah (preacher) from Tripoli; he is a charismatic and influential Islamist
figure in Lebanon and the region. A disciple of radical Egyptian Islamist thinker Sayyid
Qutb, a believer in the revolutionary writings of Rousseau, Voltaire, and Marx/Engels, and
an admirer of the philosophical teachings of Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri
(although he is in disagreement with their militant strategies24), he opposes secularist and
communist ideology and considers Islam to be the basis of the sociopolitical order



So yeah....your dear Assad had been breeding these islamists all these years, that without mentioning Hamas and hezbollah (hello? they're radical islamists too)- and yet you guys still think he's your best bet to defeat the Islamic terrorism (I am pointing at the trump hardliners especially, because that is a known narrative of yours).

How foolish.



The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,671
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

08 Apr 2017, 5:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
You seem to have done some mental gymnastics there. And it's your theory that he's captured and let them go to play a game.


I think the gentleman from Lebanon is spot on. Are we supposed to embrace a monster like Assad, whose tyranny had doubtlessly helped spawn ISIS?


It's not only due to that, his regime actively bred them, all explained in the above post.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Apr 2017, 8:06 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
You seem to have done some mental gymnastics there. And it's your theory that he's captured and let them go to play a game.


I think the gentleman from Lebanon is spot on. Are we supposed to embrace a monster like Assad, whose tyranny had doubtlessly helped spawn ISIS?


It's not only due to that, his regime actively bred them, all explained in the above post.


Yes, I was planning on adding something about that, but things of a hectic nature were calling to my attention at the time.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


JohnPowell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2016
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,806
Location: Palestine

09 Apr 2017, 2:18 pm

So Assad used Jihadis to fight against the US in Iraq and delay the inevitable attack on his country Boo? That's pretty smart. The US has used Jihadis in the past to fight the Soviets and now uses them in Syria to fight against Assad because Israel and Neocons want him removed. You've started the story in the middle though, if the US didn't go into Iraq (which had lead to 1 million people dead) then Assad wouldn't have made that move.

As for Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel were supporting Hamas in the 80's so they didn't have to deal with the more 'moderate' PLO. Hamas are not good for Palestinians but they had a choice out of them and the Israeli puppets, the Palestinian Authority in 2006. Can't blame them for choosing someone who wants to fight against the Israeli regime. As for Hezbollah, they formed after two brutal invasions of Lebanon, the second one in 1982 where Israel killed around 20,000 in a few months. Hezbollah are also fighting against ISIS and Al Qaeda in Syria, where as the West is backing up the terrorist groups.

And no, I don't think Assad is a hero, it's just his enemies are a million times worse.


_________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"


The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,671
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

09 Apr 2017, 4:41 pm

Everyone used jihadis, I didn't say Assad was the only one.

They're opportunistic sellswords, but if there was anyone who helped them to grow the most in the Levant, it's definitely him.

Quote:
So Assad used Jihadis to fight against the US in Iraq and delay the inevitable attack on his country Boo?


Not only that, read again the sources I provided, he released islamists from prison in Syria to 'pollute' the opposition, and he succeeded at that; in order to become the better choice in the eyes of international community.

Quote:
And no, I don't think Assad is a hero, it's just his enemies are a million times worse.


Well, let's put it like this; living about 20+ years under his gang army's oppression, no amount of words you will say about Assad would convince me to favor him over any other.

I equate him to other lunatics like Isis but I refuse to say he's the better choice; not gonna happen, no matter how much you lecture me.



The_Walrus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

12 Apr 2017, 7:36 am

I know enough about Syria to know that almost anyone in the West who thinks they understand what's going on is kidding themselves. Certainly I trust Boo more than anyone else on WP when it comes to Middle Eastern affairs.

My current tentative thoughts:

- Assad is better than ISIS, but there's a big difference between relatively good and actually good. Anyone who uses chemical weapons should not be leading a country.
- Assad vs ISIS (or "Assad vs Terrorists" if you want to include al-Nusra and similar) is an entirely false dichotomy.
- Liberal opposition groups are the least powerful of the forces, and often have conflicting interests, but might be able to form a stable coalition that will also need to include Alawites.
- Assad himself is only part of the problem. Get rid of him and someone similar will take his place. We need a liberal, democratic, secular state; Ba'athism might have a place but only in a coalition.
- Assad's army shouldn't be entirely dismantled but some generals may need to be removed if they seek to lead a military coup or intimidate the government.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

12 Apr 2017, 8:52 am

And don't forget that Assad had a father who was a similar sort of dictator. Many of the traits of the father were passed along to the son.

"Assadism" can be said to be a political ideology.

To say that Assad is better than ISIS is like saying that Mussolini was better than Hitler.

At least Mussolini didn't kill millions of people with poison gas--though, if left to his own devices, who knows what he might have done!



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

12 Apr 2017, 9:47 am

Assad might be a bad guy but he's not ISIS and isn't a threat to the US so removing him from power is not our responsibility, if we really want Assad gone or even care about stopping this civil war then the best way to do that is by working with and improving our relations with the Russians.

I'm skeptical of evidence of this chemical attack but lets say Assad's army is responsible and that it wasn't some rogue commander or anything, that would imply that the Russians who oversaw the dismantling of Syria's chemical weapons either lied or were misled by the Syrians. The 'rebels' have sarin and there have been confirmed uses of it, they have used chlorine gas too so I am not ready to assign blame just because of a media campaign to get us involved in the conflict says that only Assad's forces could of carried it out which I do not believe is true.

How can Assad be removed without empowering Islamists? You can't have a Syria with a Sunni Islamist president bent on retribution against the Shia/Alawites, Druze, Christians, Kurds, etc. The Muslim Brotherhood has shown how untrustworthy they are no matter how moderate and business friendly they pretend to be. Removing Assad is not going to end the civil war, it's not going to heal the sectarian divide but rather just introduce more chaos and death into a situation that doesn't need any more of that. There aren't liberal or moderate fighters on the ground, there might be liberal or moderate Syrians but they've either left the country or are too insignificant to be any sort of force to be reckoned with. Mind you, Obama spent billions trying to train and arm these so called moderates and almost immediately upon entering Syria they either defected or were slaughtered by ISIS who happily absorbed some new US military equipment for their large collection.

A partition of the country I think in the end will probably be necessary but that's not a solution that the warring parties want to hear, it was already the de facto situation in Iraq and we can obviously see how the sectarian divide has effected that country. How do the Kurds go back to living under another's rule and give back their de facto independence in northern Syria? How do the Turks react to a potential Kurdish state, what are their interests in the conflict?

Short of a massive & decisive intervention and complete occupation by world powers for many years I don't think anything we can do will stop the killing or bridge the sectarian divide. Safe zones? I don't know exactly what that means, maybe occupation zones like those after WWII in Germany. Russia, America, and Turkey maybe? Anything less than that I think will fail, it will cost us more in money and lives than doing nothing at all. Creating a power vacuum is what created ISIS in the first place, removing Assad means absolutely nothing if there is no plan for the future of this country. Sykes-Picot still haunts us, these are just artificial lines in the sand drawn by people rather than real countries. Walrus brings up a good point about Assad's army because that situation played out in Iraq during the American occupation with the exclusion of all Saddam's soldiers and civil service which came back to bite us with ISIS who utilized Baathist leftovers in their rise to power in western Iraq.

The problem with wanting a political solution is that their is no real credible opposition in Syria at this point that the west would be willing to tolerate, even if Assad was willing to come to the negotiation table who is on the other side of it? Irrelevant western-backed groups who have no presence in Syria that claim to moderate, liberal, secular are not going to get a seat at the table.

It's too big and complicated of a problem for the US to solve by itself, the price we'd have to pay for peace in Syria is too much and anything less than solving the problem will just make things worse in the long run.

What's really frustrating are the saboteurs working against any possible rapprochement between the US and Russia, these people simply want war as most have no issue with having normal relations with Saudi Arabia or China. If we could just treat Russia and Putin with respect I think a lot of progress in our relationship can be made, there was an eagerness on Russia's part to extend the olive branch and to deny such an opportunity I think is criminal. The US and Russia being on good terms would make the entire planet safer.



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

12 Apr 2017, 10:28 am

Trump supporters like thugs.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

12 Apr 2017, 10:49 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Trump supporters like thugs.

Don't respond to my posts if you're not going to even take the time to read it.

The real thugs are the neocons and deep state in this country, they have more blood on their hands than anyone.



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

12 Apr 2017, 10:53 am

Ignore the thugs you can see right before your eyes, and imagine worse thugs in the dark corners of your room at night?


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

12 Apr 2017, 10:57 am

As mentioned its a very complicated not black & white issue so if you're not prepared to do a little homework and reading then you shouldn't participate. What are you adding to the conversation besides throwing around insults? State your position on Syria or shut up, you're a middle aged man for Christ's sake.



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

12 Apr 2017, 11:10 am

Stereotyping by age?

I'm not on any side. We lost the chance for a good resolution when we let Assad taint the opposition as Boo detailed.

Obama went to Congress for authorization to intervene, and McConnell had the gall to go on the morning shows and call it a ploy. Well, I do see it as a ploy to get them to do their job and not give them a backstabbing opening.

I'm up on the situation. Brace for chaos.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade