Should we have concern about the welfare of strangers? Why?

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Kraichgauer
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06 Jul 2017, 5:34 am

Because Christ said, "When you had done these things for the least, you have done them for me."
For those who insist on calling us a Christian country, who more often than not are conservatives and libertarians, they have to be willing to live by Christ's call to care for the stranger, and for the least among us. And that means Ayn Rand, with all her sociopathic talk about the virtue of selfishness, has to be tossed into the dustbin of history.


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adifferentname
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06 Jul 2017, 5:46 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Because Christ said, "When you had done these things for the least, you have done them for me."
For those who insist on calling us a Christian country, who more often than not are conservatives and libertarians, they have to be willing to live by Christ's call to care for the stranger, and for the least among us. And that means Ayn Rand, with all her sociopathic talk about the virtue of selfishness, has to be tossed into the dustbin of history.


In a single sentence, describe what Rand means by "selfishness". I suspect you're conflating her narrow definition with the common one.



LoveNotHate
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06 Jul 2017, 6:01 am

hurtloam wrote:
Let me flip it round. Why would you want a stranger to suffer when their suffering could be avoided?

It's hard to answer this question in the abstract.

Concretely, for example, I would rather see lower taxes, than programs to help drug users. Generally, I would rather have money in my pocket, than help strangers.

The price of avoidance is too high.



LoveNotHate
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06 Jul 2017, 6:10 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Also, I agree with adifferentname, in that altruism serves the ego----all-too-often, it seems people only help others, to make themselves feel better about themselves.[/b][/color]

I agree too.

"Much debate exists as to whether "true" altruism is possible in human psychology".

"psychological egoism" -view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism. It claims that, when people choose to help others, they do so ultimately because of the personal benefits that they themselves expect to obtain, directly or indirectly, from doing so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism



LoveNotHate
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06 Jul 2017, 6:16 am

Misslizard wrote:
Define stranger.
Is that a person next door,next block,next city?
Around here people stop to help a stranger broke down on the road.
It's a sad world where people won't help someone who is down.Who knows when you may need help.Miss Rand did eventually.

By stranger, I mean "a person unknown to you".

You say "sad", which implies you think there is some reason why someone should help someone.

What is that reason?



LoveNotHate
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06 Jul 2017, 6:24 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Is the total welfare of a society a zero sum game?

I'd like to make the case that you directly benefit from caring about other people. I'd rather get that issue out of the way.

Yes, that's a good point.

You can get personal satisfaction from it.

However, as an ASD person, I feel like that is diminished in me.



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06 Jul 2017, 6:25 am

adifferentname wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Because Christ said, "When you had done these things for the least, you have done them for me."
For those who insist on calling us a Christian country, who more often than not are conservatives and libertarians, they have to be willing to live by Christ's call to care for the stranger, and for the least among us. And that means Ayn Rand, with all her sociopathic talk about the virtue of selfishness, has to be tossed into the dustbin of history.


In a single sentence, describe what Rand means by "selfishness". I suspect you're conflating her narrow definition with the common one.


Selfishness is selfishness.


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06 Jul 2017, 6:52 am

Chronos wrote:
The fact of the matter is, if you do not have an inborn sense of empathy, sympathy, or social responsibility, you probably won't be able to fully comprehend the whys. In fact, one of the most difficult "disorders" for mental health care professionals...and the criminal justice system to treat, is psychopathy. Psychopaths are devoid of the qualities listed above, and because of that, they have a difficult time understanding why they should not hurt people when hurting them serves their purposes (as mundane as they may be). The logical reasons as to why they should care, or be socially responsible, or not murder people as a past time, really just don't hit home with them.

If mental health care practitioners are skilled enough and patient enough, they can succeed in turning some of these individuals into a functional psychopath/sociopath. People who are devoid of the qualities above, yet understand that it's in their direct interest to, at the very least, follow the law. Not because if they break the law, they will be punished, but if they follow the law, they will be otherwise unimpeded in their pursuit of that which they want.

So, my question to you is, do you have the capacity to comprehend the explanations?

Intellectually, I understand.

However, as an ASD person, I feel like my reciprocity with humans is diminished. So, that definitely factors in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciproci ... psychology)

However, I don't see why Jesus Christ's philosophy is preferential over say Rand, Nietzsche, Social Darwinist philosophy.



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06 Jul 2017, 7:02 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Because Christ said, "When you had done these things for the least, you have done them for me."
For those who insist on calling us a Christian country, who more often than not are conservatives and libertarians, they have to be willing to live by Christ's call to care for the stranger, and for the least among us. And that means Ayn Rand, with all her sociopathic talk about the virtue of selfishness, has to be tossed into the dustbin of history.


In a single sentence, describe what Rand means by "selfishness". I suspect you're conflating her narrow definition with the common one.


Selfishness is selfishness.


And ignorance is ignorance.



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06 Jul 2017, 7:44 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Define stranger.
Is that a person next door,next block,next city?
Around here people stop to help a stranger broke down on the road.
It's a sad world where people won't help someone who is down.Who knows when you may need help.Miss Rand did eventually.

By stranger, I mean "a person unknown to you".

You say "sad", which implies you think there is some reason why someone should help someone.

What is that reason?

Compassion.


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06 Jul 2017, 7:54 am

I help others because 1) it feels good, and 2) I prefer to live in a society where people care about each other; therefore, I am the change I wish to see in the world. As to WHY I prefer this planet be a nice, helpful place, it's because I feel a "nice" world is more beneficial to me than a not-nice world.

Before someone points out that I'm technically being "selfish" too, I'm being "selfish" in a way that I, as a human and a social animal, am programmed to be. There's a solid evolutionary reason why doing good for others feels good. Monkeys and apes understand this. Whales, dolphins, and crows understand this, so why some humans still struggle with the concept is beyond me.

Additionally, "helping strangers" is not an all-or-nothing proposition. There are different degrees and varieties of "help" one can render. Personally, I favor social safety nets; however, I'm smart enough to know that dumping heaps of government money onto a problem isn't always the best solution.


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06 Jul 2017, 8:20 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Is the total welfare of a society a zero sum game?

I'd like to make the case that you directly benefit from caring about other people. I'd rather get that issue out of the way.

Yes, that's a good point.

You can get personal satisfaction from it.

However, as an ASD person, I feel like that is diminished in me.

It goes beyond that. Your life gets measurably better when you have less suffering around you. Social welfare is a complex system, not a zero sum game where you lose by paying taxes.


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Last edited by jrjones9933 on 06 Jul 2017, 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Jul 2017, 8:36 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Is the total welfare of a society a zero sum game?

I'd like to make the case that you directly benefit from caring about other people. I'd rather get that issue out of the way.

Yes, that's a good point.

You can get personal satisfaction from it.

However, as an ASD person, I feel like that is diminished in me.

It goes beyond that. Your like gets measurably better when you have less suffering around you. Social welfare is a complex system, not a zero sum game where you lose by paying taxes.


Precisely.


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06 Jul 2017, 9:21 am

I don't care if "altruism serves the ego." In this case, both of us wins if the altruistic intervention benefited the recipient. the recipient of the altruism, and the altruistic person both win. A "win-win."

The reason behind most of altruism is not merely to "serve the ego." Though there's an element of this "selfishness" in most acts of altruism.

What matters, really, is what results from the altruism.



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06 Jul 2017, 11:05 am

Well, this is an interesting question. I think it depends on how you view life. When I took a biological anthropology class, as a bio class was necessary for my degree, I developed some understanding. Some monkeys (from whom we evolved) have characteristics that evolved in them that are contradictory. Both further the species in different ways. The first characteristic is the one similar to Ayn Rand's hypocritical philosophy (she died broke and on public assistance) that you should basically look out for yourself. Some monkeys would abandon their children for example, or take food from the others in order to ensure their own individual survival. The same species of monkey is also known to share food with the other monkeys in their groups in spite of scarcity, or take in an infant abandoned by its mother. This behavior is also helping ensure the species survival as a whole, and both have shown to be evolved characteristics. I am sorry that I'm not going to cite this as I'm going off the cuff here. If some sort of a debate ensues, I'll try to add more. But moving along...these contradictory traits in the monkeys are also obviously present in humans. We see people acting in selfish ways in order to benefit themselves, and we see them acting in altruistic ways in order to benefit humanity as a whole. Often, these contrasting characteristics can be present in one person, who acts according to circumstances of myriad origins. What I have determined is that the way we choose one characteristic (selfishness) versus the other (altruism) will shape the course of our own evolution. If the balance is tipped in favor of altruism, we may eventually have a Utopian society. If we instead act in our own interest, we may eventually destroy ourselves and our environment and we'll die out. Or we will evolve (even more) into a genocidal warmongering people. I guess you have to consider for yourself what makes you happy, as long as you aren't encroaching on anyone else's freedom.



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06 Jul 2017, 11:12 am

Allen Greenspan also supported Rand financially until she died. Thanks in part to her, no one can make it on public assistance alone.


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