Holocaust Denial Criminalisation

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Of course, the Holocaust is especially infamous because of how brutal the killings were.

In most genocides, people are just shot. In the Holocaust, people were sewn together and boiled alive. The people behind the Holocaust were clearly trying to cause as much agony as possible.

It wasn't just Jews who were killed in the Holocaust. People with disabilities, LGBTQ people, blacks and the mentally ill were also killed.

I've read some things in this thread that I would like to comment on, but I can't...<chuckle>
I don't think I thought this topic through...

I would like to say in regards to Blah blah blah, that one needs to consider what is Blah blah blah...

But this is, of course, really off the topic...
It is not a question of what he said, she said...
It is a question of whether or not we are entitled to hear both sides and judge for ourselves...

In the above two debating podcasts, the protagonists were arguing against laws which censor any utterance of a counter view.
This is in keeping with the essence of what, I dare say, most of us would consider part of a democracy...

However...
Consider this:
Modern democracy is a relatively new political system (forget about those old Athenians...who weren't modern dudes... )
The principle of freedom of speech didn't really exist in the majority of human history...
If cave man Gronk, the leader, didn't like what you grunted, he'd wack you over the head with his club and eat you for supper...

My point is, do we really have a right to be so precious about freedom of expression?
Isn't this encroachment on our liberties merely the result of societal gravitational forces returning us to humanity's status quo?

I have more to say (no surprises there ), but I'll quit while I'm behind...

I thank you...<steps off soap bx>

Why do you believe the Holocaust didn’t happen?

Why do "I"...
Or:
Why does "one"...
?

Both.

If I were you I would have first asked:"Do you believe the Holocaust didn’t happen?"
Here is my question to you: What made you jump to the conclusion I don't believe in the Holocaust?

Because you're leaving open the possibility that it didn't happen.

Of course, my impression could be wrong.

First of all we can't discuss in detail what the definition of "Holocaust" is and what a "Holocaust denier" is until we have permission from the moderator...

However,
I have the impression that some believe revisionists are saying:"There were no concentration camps or the great loss of life therein"...
At the risk of being incarcerated, I would like to say that that isn't what *they* (not me! EEP!) are saying...well not the ones I have researched to date.
But you didn't hear that from me...
Keep in mind that I have only started my research about a week ago...

As is in evidence here in this thread, some people have a profound ignorance on what revisionists are actually saying...
While I am not defending what revisionists say, I would like to know what they say so I can make up my own mind...

Regarding:"...leaving open the possibility that it didn't happen..."
(What didn't happen? At this stage we can't go there...)
I am simply being objective, as a court judge would be...
This objectivity/rationality has been discussed in a previous thread of mine called: "Emotionalism Vs Rationalism"...

I don't believe in the "Fuhrer Principle", hence my investigative nature...<shrug>
Clear as mud?

They were anatomically modern humans.



Nope.

Most modern-day hunter-gatherer societies are democratic. if you live in the jungle and someone is mean to you, you can easily just walk away. In the modern world, you can't simply walk away because the earth's natural resources are privately owned.

Authoritarianism usually isn't a product of physical strength. Authoritarianism most commonly emerges when one person is dependant on another person for food, water and shelter.

Many holocaust deniers don't deny the holocaust itself but that the Nazis intentionally committed genocide against jews. Personally it's entirely irrelevant to me if they intended genocide or not because before people were marched into concentration camps, where most inevitably died under horrible conditions, they were stripped of their rights as citizens, stripped of their property and belongings and ability to earn a living, stripped of their human rights, and forced into deplorable conditions that caused death and suffering. And I am supposed to not be offended by any of that under the apologist pretense that the Nazis didn't intend to kill anyone, or didn't use gas chambers to do it?

That is absurd. Millions of innocent, benign people...Jews, Roma (gypsies), Jehovah's witnesses, homosexuals, and ethnic Poles would not have lost their lives if the nazis had left them alone.

Thankfully my family had the sense to leave Europe before hand or they surely would have been wiped out.

This is a speech from the opposition team:

This argument is almost entirely dedicated to antisemitism...

Since I have been studying the Holocaust and the revisionist's interpretation of the event, the question: Why isn't there a differentiation between pure factual information through documents and radio communications via Enigma and scientific methodology, etc, and a far right wing stance?
Why does the clinical discipline of historical fact finding have to lose credibility through political indulgence?

Through my research I became aware of extremist right wing politics from people I thought "should" have been profoundly objective and professional.
I am still investigating as to what created these extreme views...

While some revisionists I have researched are convincingly allegiant to the truth, their political ineptitude (well, to me at least) is still unfathomable...

However,
Why is it a crime, in some countries, to simply view the facts, use reason and life wisdom and decide for oneself?
At this stage I would be on the side of those who vote against criminalisation...

I will continue my quest to discover: "The Truth, justice and all that stuff..."...
Tally ho, Sancho Panza...

<exit stage left with a furrowed brow, the theme tune of:"Man of La Mancha" in his head>

Seriously, dude, you didn't see the humour in that?...

While I think denying the holocaust is(excuse my language)insane, I don't think criminalizing this point of view, or this way of thinking will serve us any good, because once you cross that line, where does it end? I will always, always defend free speech and free thought.

I am sorry for your emotional pain...
I agree with what you have said...
FYI, I have a Jewish family member also...

I think the inevitable is happening...
I think it may be time for the moderator to lock this thread...

Many German Jews at them time were too poor to get up and leave.

That's the biggest irony regarding the Holocaust. The Nazis claimed that the Jews were controlling the media and the banks. Most of the German Jews who did actually have wealth and power fled the country as Hitler was rising to power.

In Nazi propaganda videos, Jews were often portrayed as people with poor personal hygiene. This stereotype existed in Germany at the time because so many Jews were poor.

Nowadays, the "Jews have poor personal hygiene." stereotype is mostly dead because the lower-class Jews didn't survive.

This is also one of the reasons why so many wealthy people nowadays are Jewish. Poor Jews used to be more common.