Wrong for Russia but ok for everyone else
Kraichgauer
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Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
10 Oct 2018, 3:47 pm
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is supposed to be so wrong for those from other countries to supposedly generate tons of anti-Trump material over the internet nonstop to influence American voters.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
I'm not seeing anything throughout msm where it's being pointed out that thousands of people form other countries are on the internet via twitter, instagram, facebook et al condemning the current administration and trying to get americans to turn against it. Why isn't msm going on about troll farms within the uk and its commonwealths?
Are any of these foreign users misrepresenting themselves as Americans? Are they being organized and given a specific script by the governments of their countries to alter the American political landscape and to sow discord? Therein lies the difference.
Possiby. I doubt that it's being investigated. I know several who are and have been here at least, who either don't list where they're from or give a fictitious location. A lot of them do sound like they're reading from the same script. Quite honestly there's been a few times I've thought to myself, are these people all taking the same class?
Now I'm not saying those from other countries shouldn't express their opinions. I'm talking about those who flip their lids over forgien interference, but only over one country.
Then who are these countries? how do you know they are lying about their locations?
You asked me if foreign users misrepresenting themselves as Americans. I said I don't know because it's never been investigated as far as I know, unless they're from Russia or supposedly from Russia.
I didn't say the others are lying about their locations, although some might be, just that they don't have a location in their profile or it says something fictitious like "the scarlet jungles of krypton".
But what difference does it make? If someone on twitter from the UK or Canada or wherever is making all kinds of partisan comments about US politics, do their comments carry less weight if they have their actual location listed, and carry more weight if they have US listed instead?
And most of the people outside of America who go on and on about US politics, sound like they're from here. Because one isn't likely to assume someone so deeply involved in talking about US politics isn't an American.
It's been pointed out over the years, that it seems like here at least, that those who post the most about US politics are not from the US. Ad they seem pretty insistent that Americans should vote the way they want them to.
Which is fine, I suppose. I'm just pointing out what seems to be a double standard.
You'd have a point if it was demonstrated if Nigeria or the UK was conducting an intelligence operation to disrupt the American political landscape, but there isn't as far as I know. The only foreign power that has factually demonstrated to have been conducting this sort of cyber warfare are the Russians. Now, if this was a matter of just Russian citizens acting as individuals expressing their opinions on American politics, that again would b e a different story, but it was simply not.
The reason why the rest of the world speaks out about American politics is because we're THE world power. What happens in America influences the rest of the planet, along with the fact we're a free and open society where anyone can learn about the goings on in America, and are free to talk about it. Not unlike how your and my Barbarian ancestors in their sod and mud huts knew very well what was happening within the Roman Empire, even though the Romans considered our forebears to be savages living in the back of beyond - which was true.
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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
funeralxempire
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11 Oct 2018, 12:45 am
EzraS wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is supposed to be so wrong for those from other countries to supposedly generate tons of anti-Trump material over the internet nonstop to influence American voters.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
I'm not seeing anything throughout msm where it's being pointed out that thousands of people form other countries are on the internet via twitter, instagram, facebook et al condemning the current administration and trying to get americans to turn against it. Why isn't msm going on about troll farms within the uk and its commonwealths?
I think the difference is that in the one case they're professional troll farms vs. large groups of private citizens with no real coordination. Private citizens choosing to post either pro- or anti-Trump messages isn't comparable to paid posters like Russia (and likely China) maintain for astroturf purposes. To compare the two merely presents a false equivalency.
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11 Oct 2018, 2:05 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is supposed to be so wrong for those from other countries to supposedly generate tons of anti-Trump material over the internet nonstop to influence American voters.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
I'm not seeing anything throughout msm where it's being pointed out that thousands of people form other countries are on the internet via twitter, instagram, facebook et al condemning the current administration and trying to get americans to turn against it. Why isn't msm going on about troll farms within the uk and its commonwealths?
Are any of these foreign users misrepresenting themselves as Americans? Are they being organized and given a specific script by the governments of their countries to alter the American political landscape and to sow discord? Therein lies the difference.
Possiby. I doubt that it's being investigated. I know several who are and have been here at least, who either don't list where they're from or give a fictitious location. A lot of them do sound like they're reading from the same script. Quite honestly there's been a few times I've thought to myself, are these people all taking the same class?
Now I'm not saying those from other countries shouldn't express their opinions. I'm talking about those who flip their lids over forgien interference, but only over one country.
Then who are these countries? how do you know they are lying about their locations?
You asked me if foreign users misrepresenting themselves as Americans. I said I don't know because it's never been investigated as far as I know, unless they're from Russia or supposedly from Russia.
I didn't say the others are lying about their locations, although some might be, just that they don't have a location in their profile or it says something fictitious like "the scarlet jungles of krypton".
But what difference does it make? If someone on twitter from the UK or Canada or wherever is making all kinds of partisan comments about US politics, do their comments carry less weight if they have their actual location listed, and carry more weight if they have US listed instead?
And most of the people outside of America who go on and on about US politics, sound like they're from here. Because one isn't likely to assume someone so deeply involved in talking about US politics isn't an American.
It's been pointed out over the years, that it seems like here at least, that those who post the most about US politics are not from the US. Ad they seem pretty insistent that Americans should vote the way they want them to.
Which is fine, I suppose. I'm just pointing out what seems to be a double standard.
You'd have a point if it was demonstrated if Nigeria or the UK was conducting an intelligence operation to disrupt the American political landscape, but there isn't as far as I know. The only foreign power that has factually demonstrated to have been conducting this sort of cyber warfare are the Russians. Now, if this was a matter of just Russian citizens acting as individuals expressing their opinions on American politics, that again would b e a different story, but it was simply not.
The reason why the rest of the world speaks out about American politics is because we're THE world power. What happens in America influences the rest of the planet, along with the fact we're a free and open society where anyone can learn about the goings on in America, and are free to talk about it. Not unlike how your and my Barbarian ancestors in their sod and mud huts knew very well what was happening within the Roman Empire, even though the Romans considered our forebears to be savages living in the back of beyond - which was true.
So if millions of forgieners are on the internet trying to persuade Americans to vote a certain way, it doesn't matter in the least. Unless it's supposedly government sponsored.
11 Oct 2018, 2:10 am
funeralxempire wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is supposed to be so wrong for those from other countries to supposedly generate tons of anti-Trump material over the internet nonstop to influence American voters.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
I'm not seeing anything throughout msm where it's being pointed out that thousands of people form other countries are on the internet via twitter, instagram, facebook et al condemning the current administration and trying to get americans to turn against it. Why isn't msm going on about troll farms within the uk and its commonwealths?
I think the difference is that in the one case they're professional troll farms vs. large groups of private citizens with no real coordination. Private citizens choosing to post either pro- or anti-Trump messages isn't comparable to paid posters like Russia (and likely China) maintain for astroturf purposes. To compare the two merely presents a false equivalency.
That is if troll farms actually exist. And those posting pro-gop pro-trump material are actually russians. Much less russians who are paid trolls operating from some farm. I myself have been accused of being a paid russian troll. What if the whole thing was invented as a means of suppression?
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Oct 2018, 4:09 am
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is supposed to be so wrong for those from other countries to supposedly generate tons of anti-Trump material over the internet nonstop to influence American voters.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
I'm not seeing anything throughout msm where it's being pointed out that thousands of people form other countries are on the internet via twitter, instagram, facebook et al condemning the current administration and trying to get americans to turn against it. Why isn't msm going on about troll farms within the uk and its commonwealths?
Are any of these foreign users misrepresenting themselves as Americans? Are they being organized and given a specific script by the governments of their countries to alter the American political landscape and to sow discord? Therein lies the difference.
Possiby. I doubt that it's being investigated. I know several who are and have been here at least, who either don't list where they're from or give a fictitious location. A lot of them do sound like they're reading from the same script. Quite honestly there's been a few times I've thought to myself, are these people all taking the same class?
Now I'm not saying those from other countries shouldn't express their opinions. I'm talking about those who flip their lids over forgien interference, but only over one country.
Then who are these countries? how do you know they are lying about their locations?
You asked me if foreign users misrepresenting themselves as Americans. I said I don't know because it's never been investigated as far as I know, unless they're from Russia or supposedly from Russia.
I didn't say the others are lying about their locations, although some might be, just that they don't have a location in their profile or it says something fictitious like "the scarlet jungles of krypton".
But what difference does it make? If someone on twitter from the UK or Canada or wherever is making all kinds of partisan comments about US politics, do their comments carry less weight if they have their actual location listed, and carry more weight if they have US listed instead?
And most of the people outside of America who go on and on about US politics, sound like they're from here. Because one isn't likely to assume someone so deeply involved in talking about US politics isn't an American.
It's been pointed out over the years, that it seems like here at least, that those who post the most about US politics are not from the US. Ad they seem pretty insistent that Americans should vote the way they want them to.
Which is fine, I suppose. I'm just pointing out what seems to be a double standard.
You'd have a point if it was demonstrated if Nigeria or the UK was conducting an intelligence operation to disrupt the American political landscape, but there isn't as far as I know. The only foreign power that has factually demonstrated to have been conducting this sort of cyber warfare are the Russians. Now, if this was a matter of just Russian citizens acting as individuals expressing their opinions on American politics, that again would b e a different story, but it was simply not.
The reason why the rest of the world speaks out about American politics is because we're THE world power. What happens in America influences the rest of the planet, along with the fact we're a free and open society where anyone can learn about the goings on in America, and are free to talk about it. Not unlike how your and my Barbarian ancestors in their sod and mud huts knew very well what was happening within the Roman Empire, even though the Romans considered our forebears to be savages living in the back of beyond - which was true.
So if millions of forgieners are on the internet trying to persuade Americans to vote a certain way, it doesn't matter in the least. Unless it's supposedly government sponsored.
There is a huge difference between millions of private citizens practicing their God given right of free speech as opposed to a concerted effort by an enemy government attempting to subvert our elections.
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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
11 Oct 2018, 5:19 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
There is a huge difference between millions of private citizens practicing their God given right of free speech as opposed to a concerted effort by an enemy government attempting to subvert our elections.
If other governments aren't involved with and paying their citizens for all the partisan propaganda they write on the internet, why would the russian government need to be? I do know that russian citizens can write stuff on their own, since there's at least two of them on wp currently doing so.
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Oct 2018, 6:07 am
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There is a huge difference between millions of private citizens practicing their God given right of free speech as opposed to a concerted effort by an enemy government attempting to subvert our elections.
If other governments aren't involved with and paying their citizens for all the partisan propaganda they write on the internet, why would the russian government need to be? I do know that russian citizens can write stuff on their own, since there's at least two of them on wp currently doing so.
Because that's the MO of Putin and his buddies in Russian intelligence. We know that they've been interfering with the elections of their neighbors for years now. Russian intelligence, organized crime, and their oligarchs - all of whom are tied together - commonly have groomed and compromised Pro-Russian candidates in foreign countries for them to carry out policies favorable to Putin. One such Pro-Putin strongman had been the puppet in Ukraine who was eventually overthrown by the Anti-Russian uprising, as well as the mini-me Putin strongmen governing the former Soviet Republics.
Has it never tweaked your suspicions that all those Russians posing as Americans were so Pro-Trump? Wouldn't you think that Clinton would have gotten some support if they had just been private individuals?
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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
11 Oct 2018, 6:47 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There is a huge difference between millions of private citizens practicing their God given right of free speech as opposed to a concerted effort by an enemy government attempting to subvert our elections.
If other governments aren't involved with and paying their citizens for all the partisan propaganda they write on the internet, why would the russian government need to be? I do know that russian citizens can write stuff on their own, since there's at least two of them on wp currently doing so.
Because that's the MO of Putin and his buddies in Russian intelligence. We know that they've been interfering with the elections of their neighbors for years now. Russian intelligence, organized crime, and their oligarchs - all of whom are tied together - commonly have groomed and compromised Pro-Russian candidates in foreign countries for them to carry out policies favorable to Putin. One such Pro-Putin strongman had been the puppet in Ukraine who was eventually overthrown by the Anti-Russian uprising, as well as the mini-me Putin strongmen governing the former Soviet Republics.
Has it never tweaked your suspicions that all those Russians posing as Americans were so Pro-Trump? Wouldn't you think that Clinton would have gotten some support if they had just been private individuals?
Why should it be any more suspicious than the support Clinton did get from the UK and it's commonwealths? Who are still deluging the internet 24/7. Even this little place gets flooded on a daily basis.
Why is it always the UK and co we hear from in huge volumes and hardly anyone from any other countries chiming in on American politics?
Looks to me like the citizens of the UK and co posting about American politics are anti-trump and the citizens of Russia posting about American politics are pro-trump. And that would be because it seemed like Hillary intended to be their archenemy. I really don't think most of them needed to be paid to dislike and even fear her, and any other foreign politicians they perceive as a threat to their country.
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Oct 2018, 1:18 pm
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There is a huge difference between millions of private citizens practicing their God given right of free speech as opposed to a concerted effort by an enemy government attempting to subvert our elections.
If other governments aren't involved with and paying their citizens for all the partisan propaganda they write on the internet, why would the russian government need to be? I do know that russian citizens can write stuff on their own, since there's at least two of them on wp currently doing so.
Because that's the MO of Putin and his buddies in Russian intelligence. We know that they've been interfering with the elections of their neighbors for years now. Russian intelligence, organized crime, and their oligarchs - all of whom are tied together - commonly have groomed and compromised Pro-Russian candidates in foreign countries for them to carry out policies favorable to Putin. One such Pro-Putin strongman had been the puppet in Ukraine who was eventually overthrown by the Anti-Russian uprising, as well as the mini-me Putin strongmen governing the former Soviet Republics.
Has it never tweaked your suspicions that all those Russians posing as Americans were so Pro-Trump? Wouldn't you think that Clinton would have gotten some support if they had just been private individuals?
Why should it be any more suspicious than the support Clinton did get from the UK and it's commonwealths? Who are still deluging the internet 24/7. Even this little place gets flooded on a daily basis.
Why is it always the UK and co we hear from in huge volumes and hardly anyone from any other countries chiming in on American politics?
Looks to me like the citizens of the UK and co posting about American politics are anti-trump and the citizens of Russia posting about American politics are pro-trump. And that would be because it seemed like Hillary intended to be their archenemy. I really don't think most of them needed to be paid to dislike and even fear her, and any other foreign politicians they perceive as a threat to their country.
As I've said already, the UK is a close ally that hasn't used that kind of intelligence operation to alter the politics of other countries, whereas Russia is an enemy that has used this same tactic in the past. That alone sends off my alarm bells.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
11 Oct 2018, 2:25 pm
EzraS wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is supposed to be so wrong for those from other countries to supposedly generate tons of anti-Trump material over the internet nonstop to influence American voters.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
Yet it seems to be perfectly okay for Russians working from troll farms to generate pro-Trump material over the internet to influence American voters.
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
I'm not seeing anything throughout msm where it's being pointed out that thousands of people form other countries are on the internet via twitter, instagram, facebook et al condemning the current administration and trying to get americans to turn against it. Why isn't msm going on about troll farms within the uk and its commonwealths?
I think the difference is that in the one case they're professional troll farms vs. large groups of private citizens with no real coordination. Private citizens choosing to post either pro- or anti-Trump messages isn't comparable to paid posters like Russia (and likely China) maintain for astroturf purposes. To compare the two merely presents a false equivalency.
That is if troll farms actually exist. And those posting pro-gop pro-trump material are actually russians. Much less russians who are paid trolls operating from some farm. I myself have been accused of being a paid russian troll. What if the whole thing was invented as a means of suppression?
All our intelligence agencies agree on this. And they aren't Trump people. So it's probably true.
11 Oct 2018, 3:34 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
As I've said already, the UK is a close ally that hasn't used that kind of intelligence operation to alter the politics of other countries, whereas Russia is an enemy that has used this same tactic in the past. That alone sends off my alarm bells.
be that as it may, i can see why most russian citizens would personally be anti clinton and wouldn't need to be hired by their government to want to thwart her and those like her. and they acting on their own should have just as much carte blanche as the uk to try influencing amarican voters.
citizens of other countries like france, germany, spain, italy, japan, china, mexico etc. don't seem to be involving themselves.
RetroGamer87
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11 Oct 2018, 5:21 pm
EzraS wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Where are these left-wing troll farms? How much are they paid? There's a difference between paying someone to spread ideas on the internet and people doing it on their own time.
The fact is that a lot of people in other countries don't like Trump and if you can't deal with with other people's opinions than you should stay in your safe space and keep off the internet.
The fact is that a lot of people in other countries don't like Trump and if you can't deal with with other people's opinions than you should stay in your safe space and keep off the internet.
What I'm asking is why is it being called forgien interference when it comes out of russia, but not when it comes out of other countries.
Presumably it's foreign interference when it's an intentional deception orchestrated by a foreign government, rather than foreign individuals expressing their dissatisfaction.
However I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the Russian government has altered the results of the election either through computer hacking or through social influence.
If something like thay actually had occurred then I would suggest that America had been negligent for making their election hackable.
I would not call a country strong that can defend itself from all physical force but cannot stop a foreign power deciding the outcome of their elections.
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Kraichgauer
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Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Oct 2018, 6:50 pm
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As I've said already, the UK is a close ally that hasn't used that kind of intelligence operation to alter the politics of other countries, whereas Russia is an enemy that has used this same tactic in the past. That alone sends off my alarm bells.
be that as it may, i can see why most russian citizens would personally be anti clinton and wouldn't need to be hired by their government to want to thwart her and those like her. and they acting on their own should have just as much carte blanche as the uk to try influencing amarican voters.
citizens of other countries like france, germany, spain, italy, japan, china, mexico etc. don't seem to be involving themselves.
So why wouldn't the Russian government attempt to influence American politics? They have motive, means, and opportunity, and most importantly, their national leader is a spy master who has done this sort of thing before.
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RetroGamer87
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,186
Location: Adelaide, Australia
11 Oct 2018, 9:11 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As I've said already, the UK is a close ally that hasn't used that kind of intelligence operation to alter the politics of other countries, whereas Russia is an enemy that has used this same tactic in the past. That alone sends off my alarm bells.
be that as it may, i can see why most russian citizens would personally be anti clinton and wouldn't need to be hired by their government to want to thwart her and those like her. and they acting on their own should have just as much carte blanche as the uk to try influencing amarican voters.
citizens of other countries like france, germany, spain, italy, japan, china, mexico etc. don't seem to be involving themselves.
So why wouldn't the Russian government attempt to influence American politics? They have motive, means, and opportunity, and most importantly, their national leader is a spy master who has done this sort of thing before.
i just don't see why the russian government would need to pay their citizens to do something they would do anyways. just like uk/canada/australia/nz don't need to pay their citizens to attempt to influence american politics which they are doing in droves nonstop around the clock.
11 Oct 2018, 9:14 pm
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Speaking of double standards, why is it ok for the US to influence another countrys politics but wrong when someone else does it?
something like because the us hasn't been caught doing that for a while.
but really i think it boils down to russia must been seen as a dangerous enemy, that tre45on trump is in collusion with and a puppet of. so you know like don't vote for him again.
