05 Mar 2019, 11:46 am
05 Mar 2019, 11:52 am
Bender, your beliefs and mine do not coincide, unless you believe that two beers are better than one.
BenderRodriguez wrote:
... I'm genuinely curious if I'll ever run into somebody who's reasons for sticking to the religion they were born into don't boil down to conformism, habit, apathy, convenience or indoctrination.
Well, that pretty much covers everything, doesn't it? Except personal gain, of course.BenderRodriguez wrote:
The rare JWs I meet around these parts are only interested in recruiting or monologue, not so much dialogue...
Same here, and I've been around for over 60 years, as well.BenderRodriguez wrote:
... so who knows, maybe the lady has something interesting to say.
Interesting, certainly...
05 Mar 2019, 12:07 pm
BrokenPieces wrote:
-fnord, my bible and other translations does not say that Jesus is Jehovah. Right after the scripture at John 20:28, in verse 31 it says "but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;" in the King James Version.
At John 4:34, it says "Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work." If Jesus is Jehovah, who sent him? Who's work is he doing? If it's his own, why would he say this?
Mark 14:36 says "And he said: “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you; remove this cup from me. Yet, not what I want, but what you want.” If Jesus is Jehovah, then he has no father. Who is he talking about in this verse, then? And why does he say 'not what I want but what you want'?
Ah, yes ... human wisdom, at it's finest.At John 4:34, it says "Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work." If Jesus is Jehovah, who sent him? Who's work is he doing? If it's his own, why would he say this?
Mark 14:36 says "And he said: “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you; remove this cup from me. Yet, not what I want, but what you want.” If Jesus is Jehovah, then he has no father. Who is he talking about in this verse, then? And why does he say 'not what I want but what you want'?
First of all, no mortal can understand the true nature of God. The best any of us can do is form ideas that make sense to us as individuals. Here is my take:
Jesus (the Son) is God
The Father is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit
The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is neither the Son nor the Father
Given that God is one, The Father is the Soul, The Son is the body, and the Holy Spirit is the personality.
For it is written in John 1:1-5 (NIV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Thus we see that Jesus was the Word, With God, and was God.
For it is also written in Luke 3:21-22 (NIV): When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
In this one verse are presented the Son, (Jesus), the Holy Spirit (the dove), and the Father (the voice) -- three separate aspects of one God.
I know you folks don't believe in the Triune God (not "three gods", but one God in three aspects), but that doctrine is in direct opposition to the description of events in Luke 3:22.
You do believe that the Bible is the complete and inerrant Word of God, don't you?
05 Mar 2019, 12:33 pm
05 Mar 2019, 12:47 pm
05 Mar 2019, 1:23 pm
05 Mar 2019, 1:27 pm
05 Mar 2019, 1:29 pm
Fnord wrote:
Bender, your beliefs and mine do not coincide, unless you believe that two beers are better than one.
BenderRodriguez wrote:
... I'm genuinely curious if I'll ever run into somebody who's reasons for sticking to the religion they were born into don't boil down to conformism, habit, apathy, convenience or indoctrination.
Well, that pretty much covers everything, doesn't it? Except personal gain, of course.BenderRodriguez wrote:
The rare JWs I meet around these parts are only interested in recruiting or monologue, not so much dialogue...
Same here, and I've been around for over 60 years, as well.They seem to coincide just fine!
05 Mar 2019, 2:15 pm
15 Mar 2019, 11:14 am
27 Mar 2019, 12:02 am
27 Mar 2019, 8:14 am
27 Mar 2019, 1:56 pm
27 Mar 2019, 7:57 pm
Fnord wrote:
BrokenPieces wrote:
There is no specific date that the Watchtower mentions predicted for the end (or Armageddon) to come...
Oh, really? See below.BrokenPieces wrote:
If I'm not answering your question, I'm sorry. Please let me know what you're looking for.
More entries for this list:1874 (??/??) The end of the world according to Charles Taze Russell. This was to become the first in a long string of failed doomsday prophecies by him and members of his group. (Gould p.50, Kyle p.93)
1875 (to 1880) Charles Taze Russell forms the "Zion's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society", and the "Bible Student Movement", later to become the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1878 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1879 (07/01) Charles Taze Russell on July 1, 1879 publishes the first issue of "Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence", with the stated purpose of drawing attention to Russell's belief that people of the time were "living "in the last days" "the day of the Lord"—"the end" of the Gospel age," and that "the dawn of the "new" age are facts, not only discernible by the close student of the Word, led by the spirit, but the outward signs recognizable by the world bear the same testimony.
1881 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1908 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society change the name of their periodical to "The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence".
1910 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1914 (??/??) Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, predicts the return of Jesus Christ in this year.
1914 (??/??) End of World; Charles Taze Russel, Jehovah's Witnesses; later explained that Michael (e.g., Jesus) had defeated Satan in heaven.
1914 (??/??) Jesus invisible and quiet return to the Earth, according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Jehovah's Witnesses, Book: This Means Everlasting Life, page 221) "So A.D. 1914 marks the time of Christ's invisible return in spirit." Explained after they said he would return in 1914
1914 (??/??) was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. They computed 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to "seven times". The WTS interpreted each "time" as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date.
1914 (10/01) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. In fact, they viewed World War I as the Battle of Armageddon, even though none of the battles of WWI took place anywhere near Armageddon. (Skinner p.102)
1915 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1918 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1918 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1918 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ.
1920 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1920 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ.
1925 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year."
1925 (??/??) The return of Jesus Christ and the end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1931 (??/??) The name Jehovah's Witness, based on Isaiah 43:10–12, is formally adopted by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to distinguish themselves from other Bible Student groups and symbolize a break with the legacy of Russell's traditions.
1941 (??/??) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1941 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses. (Shaw p.72)
1941 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ.
1975 (??/??) Armageddon, 1975; Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society; (Various publication, cited in Newsweek Oct. 15, 1984)
1975 (??/??) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed. The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. There is no way of knowing when this happened.
1975 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1975 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ. 1975 looked likely as it was computed as the 6000th anniversary of the creation of Adam in the Garden of Eden in 4026 BCE.
1975 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society were back at it in 1975. The failure of the forecast did not affect the growth of the movement. The Watchtower magazine, a major Witness periodical, has over 13 million subscribers.
1984 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society made sure in 1984 that no one else would be able to top their record of most wrong doomsday predictions. The Witnesses record is currently holding at nine. The years are: 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984. Lately, the JW's are claiming they're out of the prediction business, but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. They'll be back.
1984 (10/02) The end of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Shermer p.203, Kyle p.91)
1994 (??/??) After promising themselves they would not make any more end time predictions, the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society fell off the wagon and proclaimed 1994 as the conclusion of an 80 year generation - the year 1914 was the starting point.
1994 (??/??) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1995 (11/??) "Armageddon Delayed!" In early November 1995 Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society made newspaper headlines around the world. This time it was not a record crowd at a stadium convention or even a controversial blood transfusion case that attracted international attention, but the postponement of the End. One headline read: "Armageddon Not Coming" and the related article stated that Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society had announced that "Armageddon [had] been delayed and [that] the end of the world [was] no longer nigh." (Victoria Times-Colonist, Sunday 12 November 1995, p. A2) click here for full details
1999 (??/??) End of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Skinner p.102, Mann p.xiii)
2001 (01/01) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race by 2000 AD.
They will get it right eventually...
28 Mar 2019, 8:30 am
28 Mar 2019, 8:47 am
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
BrokenPieces wrote:
There is no specific date that the Watchtower mentions predicted for the end (or Armageddon) to come...
Oh, really? See below.BrokenPieces wrote:
If I'm not answering your question, I'm sorry. Please let me know what you're looking for.
More entries for this list:1874 (??/??) The end of the world according to Charles Taze Russell. This was to become the first in a long string of failed doomsday prophecies by him and members of his group. (Gould p.50, Kyle p.93)
1875 (to 1880) Charles Taze Russell forms the "Zion's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society", and the "Bible Student Movement", later to become the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1878 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1879 (07/01) Charles Taze Russell on July 1, 1879 publishes the first issue of "Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence", with the stated purpose of drawing attention to Russell's belief that people of the time were "living "in the last days" "the day of the Lord"—"the end" of the Gospel age," and that "the dawn of the "new" age are facts, not only discernible by the close student of the Word, led by the spirit, but the outward signs recognizable by the world bear the same testimony.
1881 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1908 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society change the name of their periodical to "The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence".
1910 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1914 (??/??) Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, predicts the return of Jesus Christ in this year.
1914 (??/??) End of World; Charles Taze Russel, Jehovah's Witnesses; later explained that Michael (e.g., Jesus) had defeated Satan in heaven.
1914 (??/??) Jesus invisible and quiet return to the Earth, according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Jehovah's Witnesses, Book: This Means Everlasting Life, page 221) "So A.D. 1914 marks the time of Christ's invisible return in spirit." Explained after they said he would return in 1914
1914 (??/??) was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. They computed 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to "seven times". The WTS interpreted each "time" as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date.
1914 (10/01) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. In fact, they viewed World War I as the Battle of Armageddon, even though none of the battles of WWI took place anywhere near Armageddon. (Skinner p.102)
1915 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1918 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1918 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1918 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ.
1920 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1920 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ.
1925 (??/??) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year."
1925 (??/??) The return of Jesus Christ and the end of the world according to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1931 (??/??) The name Jehovah's Witness, based on Isaiah 43:10–12, is formally adopted by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to distinguish themselves from other Bible Student groups and symbolize a break with the legacy of Russell's traditions.
1941 (??/??) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1941 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses. (Shaw p.72)
1941 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ.
1975 (??/??) Armageddon, 1975; Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society; (Various publication, cited in Newsweek Oct. 15, 1984)
1975 (??/??) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed. The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. There is no way of knowing when this happened.
1975 (??/??) The end of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Kyle p.93)
1975 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the return of Jesus Christ. 1975 looked likely as it was computed as the 6000th anniversary of the creation of Adam in the Garden of Eden in 4026 BCE.
1975 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society were back at it in 1975. The failure of the forecast did not affect the growth of the movement. The Watchtower magazine, a major Witness periodical, has over 13 million subscribers.
1984 (??/??) The Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society made sure in 1984 that no one else would be able to top their record of most wrong doomsday predictions. The Witnesses record is currently holding at nine. The years are: 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984. Lately, the JW's are claiming they're out of the prediction business, but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. They'll be back.
1984 (10/02) The end of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Shermer p.203, Kyle p.91)
1994 (??/??) After promising themselves they would not make any more end time predictions, the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society fell off the wagon and proclaimed 1994 as the conclusion of an 80 year generation - the year 1914 was the starting point.
1994 (??/??) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race.
1995 (11/??) "Armageddon Delayed!" In early November 1995 Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society made newspaper headlines around the world. This time it was not a record crowd at a stadium convention or even a controversial blood transfusion case that attracted international attention, but the postponement of the End. One headline read: "Armageddon Not Coming" and the related article stated that Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society had announced that "Armageddon [had] been delayed and [that] the end of the world [was] no longer nigh." (Victoria Times-Colonist, Sunday 12 November 1995, p. A2) click here for full details
1999 (??/??) End of the world according to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. (Skinner p.102, Mann p.xiii)
2001 (01/01) Jehovah's Witnesses / Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicts the start of the War of Armageddon - the destruction, by the forces of nature, divided humankind, and angels of God, of all non-JW people and property. This implies the death of over 99% of the human race by 2000 AD.
They will get it right eventually...
On May First Five Billion AD they will predict the world will end "tomorrow". And then on May 2 Five Billion AD the Sun will turn into a red giant and devour the whole inner solar system including Earth. And...they will be proven right!
