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It's Trump's fault we're in this mess with Iran

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Persephone29
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21 Sep 2019, 9:31 am

The United States of America has never been, is not, nor will ever be a Christian nation.

(... unless God Himself so decrees it, of course.)[/color][/quote]



Why does our money say, "In God We Trust?" Why do we swear on Bibles before taking oaths of office or testifying in a court of law? Because the love of money is the root of all evil, unjust judgment and false witness are sins.

We do it because man's fundamental fear of death and subsequent judgment supersedes his desire to live in a secular nation.

Defeat death and you will know secularity in the US. Until then, you're just deceiving yourself.


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kraftiekortie
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21 Sep 2019, 12:34 pm

The US is officially a secular state. The US was founded on the principles of the separation of church and state. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists (at best). Most believed (publicly) that God created the world, then withdrew to allow us to fight it out amongst themselves.

There is a strong component of evangelical/Protestant Christian belief in much of the ideology of one wing of the Republican Party today. Kavanaugh is a representative of that wing.

I don’t believe Roe Vs Wade will be overturned by the Supreme Court as they are at present. There are some “conservative” judges who have become “swing voters,” and have veered more towards the center the longer they have served on the Court. John Paul Stevens, picked by the conservative Nixon, paradoxically became the most “liberal” of the Justices after many years of service.

No Muslim would disavow his Islam, and claim to be a Christian. Obama’s father was a Muslim, but was a nonentity in his life.



kraftiekortie
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21 Sep 2019, 12:44 pm

We only hear about the fanatical sects of Islam, usually.

There are many Muslims who are as “secular” about their religion as many Christians and Jews. Many Muslim women wear modern clothing and don’t cover their heads. Many don’t pray five times a day to Mecca.

Basically, African Muslims, even in North Africa, are not as fanatical about their Islam as some Muslims in the Middle East.



The_Face_of_Boo
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21 Sep 2019, 4:20 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Why do you believe Obama is a Muslim?

He’s said that he’s a Christian....and there’s some “born again” in how he professes his religion.

No true Muslim would take his/her religion like that.



I believe Obama is a Muslim because of his actions. It would not be in his best interest to deprive the US patriots the satisfaction of following through with the search and execution of Osama Bin Laden ( a small insignificant fish who believes in dying for his convictions anyway ). But, with the rise of anti-semitism around the globe, the climate was 'perfect' to sell the Iran 'deal' as good.

Who has the most to lose from the Iran deal? Answer: Israel.

What has the reputation and actions of Iran over the years taught us? They are unstable, decisions to bomb others are made on old grudges. They went from a country willing to at least think about moving into the 20th century in the 1970's to a regressed state who allowed their own religious zeal to harm their own citizens.

If you as "the leader of the free world" know that, WHY would you enter any deal for nuclear production?
Answer: you don't care who they harm with it.

Israel is very careful about entering into war, in any capacity. Were Iran to be attacked, Israel would step up because of where they are geographically (next door neighbors). The idea that a half-cracked dictator of Iran, who hates Israel and to a lesser degree, Saudi Arabia needs a nuclear bomb is telling. There was never a 'deal' about how much plutonium Iran would produce. It was just permission to produce, then the US turns their head. AND we funnel billions of dollars in cash.

That's why I believe Obama is a Muslim. No Christian who believes in the afterlife would do anything that might result in the destruction of Israel.



Catholics and Orthodox nations were never historically friendly with the Jews.
In fact, many Jews moved to the Muslim world (Maghreb, Egypt and Lebanon in particular) to escape persecution in Catholic/Orthodoxe nations.

The US supports Israel because it is a Protestant nation, the Protestants are not all Christians; and they are the most pro- Old Testament branch of Christianity.


The “Christians believe the Jews are God's chosen people. And what the Bible says about God blessing those who bless Israel and cursing those who curse Israel.” is a Protestant upbringing thing, this view isn’t really common at all among Catholics and Orthodoxes.

As for Obama, he is simply nonreligious, he is neither Muslim nor practicing Christian at the very least.

it is claimed that even his father was atheist.

He supported same sex marriage, something no practicing Muslim would do, and also been seen drinking alcohol in public - so this conspiracy about his Islam is ridiculous.



JohnPowell
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21 Sep 2019, 5:53 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Why do you believe Obama is a Muslim?

He’s said that he’s a Christian....and there’s some “born again” in how he professes his religion.

No true Muslim would take his/her religion like that.



I believe Obama is a Muslim because of his actions. It would not be in his best interest to deprive the US patriots the satisfaction of following through with the search and execution of Osama Bin Laden ( a small insignificant fish who believes in dying for his convictions anyway ). But, with the rise of anti-semitism around the globe, the climate was 'perfect' to sell the Iran 'deal' as good.

Who has the most to lose from the Iran deal? Answer: Israel.

What has the reputation and actions of Iran over the years taught us? They are unstable, decisions to bomb others are made on old grudges. They went from a country willing to at least think about moving into the 20th century in the 1970's to a regressed state who allowed their own religious zeal to harm their own citizens.

If you as "the leader of the free world" know that, WHY would you enter any deal for nuclear production?
Answer: you don't care who they harm with it.

Israel is very careful about entering into war, in any capacity. Were Iran to be attacked, Israel would step up because of where they are geographically (next door neighbors). The idea that a half-cracked dictator of Iran, who hates Israel and to a lesser degree, Saudi Arabia needs a nuclear bomb is telling. There was never a 'deal' about how much plutonium Iran would produce. It was just permission to produce, then the US turns their head. AND we funnel billions of dollars in cash.

That's why I believe Obama is a Muslim. No Christian who believes in the afterlife would do anything that might result in the destruction of Israel.


Obama increased aid to Israel and bombed more Muslims than Bush. He turned 2 wars into 7 on countries full of Muslims.


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21 Sep 2019, 6:54 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Why does our money say, "In God We Trust?"
The answer to your question is in This Wikipedia Article.

Persephone29 wrote:
Why do we swear on Bibles before taking oaths of office or testifying in a court of law?
Because "We" want to. Rather, people who think it's important to swear on a Bible will swear on a Bible. Some people swear on science textbooks, cook-books, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and even on their own mothers' photographs. There is no law that any oath must be taken on a Christian Bible, which proves America is not a Christian nation.

Persephone29 wrote:
Defeat death and you will know secularism in the US. Until then, you're just deceiving yourself.
Evidence, please? I've been waiting all of my self-aware life for valid empirical evidence that "defeating death" will accomplish anything other than boredom and over-population.



kraftiekortie
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21 Sep 2019, 8:09 pm

Who is not a Christian as a Protestant? A Protestant is a non-Catholic/Orthodox Christian.



Persephone29
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24 Sep 2019, 6:42 am

Fnord wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Why does our money say, "In God We Trust?"
The answer to your question is in This Wikipedia Article.

Persephone29 wrote:
Why do we swear on Bibles before taking oaths of office or testifying in a court of law?
Because "We" want to. Rather, people who think it's important to swear on a Bible will swear on a Bible. Some people swear on science textbooks, cook-books, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and even on their own mothers' photographs. There is no law that any oath must be taken on a Christian Bible, which proves America is not a Christian nation.

Persephone29 wrote:
Defeat death and you will know secularism in the US. Until then, you're just deceiving yourself.
Evidence, please? I've been waiting all of my self-aware life for valid empirical evidence that "defeating death" will accomplish anything other than boredom and over-population.



I don't agree with the Wikipedia article.

I do agree with the other explanation of why swearing on the Bible began. I just don't think that's sufficient reason to continue.

We could easily do away with God altogether.

No real time to argue, problems w/granddaughter.


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Fnord
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24 Sep 2019, 8:01 am

Persephone29 wrote:
I don't agree with the Wikipedia article.
Too bad. It's the truth. Deal with it.



VegetableMan
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24 Sep 2019, 12:04 pm

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, it clearly states that the U.S. was not founded on the Christian religion.


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Fnord
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24 Sep 2019, 12:11 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, it clearly states that the U.S. was not founded on the Christian religion.
Article 11 reads:
Quote:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
(Note: "Mussulmen" = Muslims; "Mahometan" = Mohammedan)

The assurances in Article 11 were intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers.

The United States of America is a secular nation, and NOT a Christian nation.



kraftiekortie
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24 Sep 2019, 12:20 pm

There is much Christian-derived doctrine in how the Founding Fathers thought.

This country was founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

The US does not have an official religion, or an official language.

Obviously, most people are Christians, in many sects. Their ideology totally runs the gamut.



auntblabby
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24 Sep 2019, 8:17 pm

why do so many amuuurican xtians insist that everybody else believe and act as they do?



Persephone29
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25 Sep 2019, 9:48 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is much Christian-derived doctrine in how the Founding Fathers thought.

This country was founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

The US does not have an official religion, or an official language.

Obviously, most people are Christians, in many sects. Their ideology totally runs the gamut.



I keep getting caught in the captcha loop, so I've lost my zeal.

And that's the truth. There's all the documentation to support secularism. Yet it still seeps in... because I don't believe that anyone has the power to completely shut down their own personal convictions, of which religion can (and does) play a big part. And neither does government, or they wouldn't fight so hard to try and keep candidates with known Christian preference out of positions of power. You can separate church and state on paper, but it's harder in a person.


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25 Sep 2019, 10:32 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is much Christian-derived doctrine in how the Founding Fathers thought.

This country was founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

The US does not have an official religion, or an official language.

Obviously, most people are Christians, in many sects. Their ideology totally runs the gamut.



I keep getting caught in the captcha loop, so I've lost my zeal.

And that's the truth. There's all the documentation to support secularism. Yet it still seeps in... because I don't believe that anyone has the power to completely shut down their own personal convictions, of which religion can (and does) play a big part. And neither does government, or they wouldn't fight so hard to try and keep candidates with known Christian preference out of positions of power. You can separate church and state on paper, but it's harder in a person.


:? Are we living in the same world?


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25 Sep 2019, 10:36 pm

these days, the righties live in their own world firmly stuck in the primitive past.