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Are we going to live in a world ruled by China?

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Tw1ggy
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10 Apr 2020, 5:17 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
So you think it would have been better for the world to have mad king Saddam still in power?

When Mad King Bush only succeeded in making the country worse off today, yes.



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10 Apr 2020, 5:31 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
So you think it would have been better for the world to have mad king Saddam still in power?


Yeah. Quite possibly.

WOW!

You are the first person I have seen on WP in about ten years DEFEND W.Bush, and his invasion of Iraq.


Everyone: Right, left, center, Trump worshippers, Trump haters, Bernie supporters, etc. ALL seemed to agree that the Invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake.

Grassroots American Republican voters have disowned W., and his invasion. That's a big part of why Trump got elected. The elite GOP hasn't disowned W, but the grassroot GOP voters have.

And its not obvious how the world would be worse off if Saddam hadn't been toppled by our invasion.

There would have been no ISIS, for one thing. Iran would have far less influence. Yeah...things might be better.

On the other hand: without the US ineptly destabilizing Iraq the way it did, Iraq might well have destabilized itself. The old man would've died of natural, or unnatural causes. His two depraved sons would have fought each other to succeed Saddam, and the whole Iraqi state might have come unraveled, and Iraq's constituent ethnic groups might well have ended up in civil war (like Lebanon in the Eighties, and like Syria did in the wake of the Arab Spring). But American lives would not have been lost.



Tw1ggy
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10 Apr 2020, 5:36 pm

Sorry but I'm not in favor of the American Empire sending its own people to get slaughtered while messing other people's countries up. It's not just bad for our enemies, it's bad for us too. Look at what happened to the Romans when they started all those wars. Wars are expensive!



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10 Apr 2020, 5:38 pm

Tw1ggy wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
So you think it would have been better for the world to have mad king Saddam still in power?

When Mad King Bush only succeeded in making the country worse off today, yes.


You mean improving nothing while significantly destabilizing the situation didn't benefit global security?


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Tw1ggy
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10 Apr 2020, 5:45 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Tw1ggy wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
So you think it would have been better for the world to have mad king Saddam still in power?

When Mad King Bush only succeeded in making the country worse off today, yes.


You mean improving nothing while significantly destabilizing the situation didn't benefit global security?

I think naturalplastic nailed it better than I could. Iraq was essentially Vietnam all over again, and lets not forget all those war crimes in both wars that were commited by Americans. Although I'm getting the feeling I'm the only one here truly bothered by all that.



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10 Apr 2020, 5:48 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
I suspect the global opinion of China is about to drop rather steeply


^One can hope. One can certainly hope.

Wolfram87 wrote:
Also, there's apparently efforts underway to sue China under international law for something like 6 trillion dollars.


^One can hope. One can certainly hope.

Wolfram87 wrote:
Personally, I say Chine needs a regime change. Perhaps with...encouragement.


^Yes, one can hope the totalitarian and evil regime crumbles and falls.



Wolfram87
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10 Apr 2020, 5:49 pm

Oh, I'm not defending the way it was executed. That was bumbled up in every possible way. What I'm saying is that Iraq under Saddams rule fulfilled every condition under international law to lose its sovereignty as a state, which include but are certainly not limited to funding, harbouring and (for extra funsies) handing out diplomatic passports to internationally wanted terrorists. But I digress, the point is that yes, the fall of Iraq led to ISIS and untold levels of misery. But we don't have the other side of that to compare to; we don't know what might have come from having Saddam remain in power, but good things coming from a terrorist-alligned rogue state with a sadistic crime lord with ambitions to acquire illicit nuclear weapons as its head of state is something I deem exceedingly unlikely.


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Tw1ggy
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10 Apr 2020, 9:09 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
But I digress, the point is that yes, the fall of Iraq led to ISIS and untold levels of misery...

And as people of Western Civilization of course we don't really care about any of that as long as we got our precious oil and stopped those 'weapons of mass destruction' that Iraq never had. Maybe it actually would be more fun to see the US invade China because they actually DO have weapons of mass destruction! Americans need to pick on a country their own size for once.



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11 Apr 2020, 3:15 am

Tw1ggy wrote:
Cause it seems to me like the USA is falling behind as we speak. :shrug:


Hopefully, I will be dead of old age before china takes over the world. <no emoji>



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11 Apr 2020, 3:18 am

Karamazov wrote:
Yeah: mostly dockyards and service infrastructure, think it’s only dockyards that they own outright though.

As far as I’m aware the situation is similar in parts of Africa.


They own a port in Darwin (Australia), now.
Our Australian watchdogs dropped the ball on that one.
I don't think it will happen again, cross paws.



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11 Apr 2020, 3:58 am

Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Yeah: mostly dockyards and service infrastructure, think it’s only dockyards that they own outright though.

As far as I’m aware the situation is similar in parts of Africa.


They own a port in Darwin (Australia), now.
Our Australian watchdogs dropped the ball on that one.
I don't think it will happen again, cross paws.


Yes, one of the things I found quite curious about the Cameron administration here was the enthusiasm of a conservative led government for CCP involvement in our national infrastructure.
The current and last Tory administrations are/were also insistent that Huawei must supply our forthcoming 5G when there are German companies that provide the same tech, probably with better design and build quality.



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11 Apr 2020, 4:35 am

Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Yeah: mostly dockyards and service infrastructure, think it’s only dockyards that they own outright though.

As far as I’m aware the situation is similar in parts of Africa.


They own a port in Darwin (Australia), now.
Our Australian watchdogs dropped the ball on that one.
I don't think it will happen again, cross paws.


Yes, one of the things I found quite curious about the Cameron administration here was the enthusiasm of a conservative led government for CCP involvement in our national infrastructure.
The current and last Tory administrations are/were also insistent that Huawei must supply our forthcoming 5G when there are German companies that provide the same tech, probably with better design and build quality.


The ccp undercuts prices for long term strategic reasons.
Your government has been sucked in because of financial considerations.
Absolute madness.

There is talk about reviewing the Huawei decision, spurred on by the COVID-19 crisis.
Anyone who trusts the ccp not doing the wrong thing, given the chance, is a total fool, imo. 8O



Karamazov
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11 Apr 2020, 5:00 am

Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Yeah: mostly dockyards and service infrastructure, think it’s only dockyards that they own outright though.

As far as I’m aware the situation is similar in parts of Africa.


They own a port in Darwin (Australia), now.
Our Australian watchdogs dropped the ball on that one.
I don't think it will happen again, cross paws.


Yes, one of the things I found quite curious about the Cameron administration here was the enthusiasm of a conservative led government for CCP involvement in our national infrastructure.
The current and last Tory administrations are/were also insistent that Huawei must supply our forthcoming 5G when there are German companies that provide the same tech, probably with better design and build quality.


The ccp undercuts prices for long term strategic reasons.
Your government has been sucked in because of financial considerations.
Absolute madness.

There is talk about reviewing the Huawei decision, spurred on by the COVID-19 crisis.
Anyone who trusts the ccp not doing the wrong thing, given the chance, is a total fool, imo. 8O


Penny-Pinching on national infrastructure with cavalier disregard for the consequences?
Why would you suspect the British Conservative party of that? :lol:
Hopeful news on the review: I’d be much happier with 5G supplier by folks based in the Ruhr: think there’s also a Swedish company who can do the job if contracted.
(I wouldn’t be surprised if “B****t means B****t” was behind the Huawei contract)
As I indicated above: I doubt they’d try to impose their post-Maoist system on us for the sake of it, but screwing with our political system and culture to keep the revenue flowing back to the PRC to fund and stabilise their rule? Of course they would 8O



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11 Apr 2020, 6:21 am

Tw1ggy wrote:
And as people of Western Civilization of course we don't really care about any of that as long as we got our precious oil.


Your "I am the only empathetic person in the world" song and dance gets old pretty quickly, I suggest thinking beyond your own navel-gazing. You are free to say you care or you don't care, but you speak for no one but yourself.


Quote:
and stopped those 'weapons of mass destruction' that Iraq never had.


You mean those weapons of mass destruction that Saddam used in the annexation of
Kuwait, that he used against the Kurds and that were sporadically discovered and disposed off during the 2003 invasion? Those weapons of mass destruction?
(https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... apons.html)

Note that "weapons of mass destruction" is a broader term that includes chemical and biological weapons, not just nukes.


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Pepe
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11 Apr 2020, 7:06 am

Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Yeah: mostly dockyards and service infrastructure, think it’s only dockyards that they own outright though.

As far as I’m aware the situation is similar in parts of Africa.


They own a port in Darwin (Australia), now.
Our Australian watchdogs dropped the ball on that one.
I don't think it will happen again, cross paws.


Yes, one of the things I found quite curious about the Cameron administration here was the enthusiasm of a conservative led government for CCP involvement in our national infrastructure.
The current and last Tory administrations are/were also insistent that Huawei must supply our forthcoming 5G when there are German companies that provide the same tech, probably with better design and build quality.


The ccp undercuts prices for long term strategic reasons.
Your government has been sucked in because of financial considerations.
Absolute madness.

There is talk about reviewing the Huawei decision, spurred on by the COVID-19 crisis.
Anyone who trusts the ccp not doing the wrong thing, given the chance, is a total fool, imo. 8O


Penny-Pinching on national infrastructure with cavalier disregard for the consequences?
Why would you suspect the British Conservative party of that? :lol:
Hopeful news on the review: I’d be much happier with 5G supplier by folks based in the Ruhr: think there’s also a Swedish company who can do the job if contracted.
(I wouldn’t be surprised if “B****t means B****t” was behind the Huawei contract)
As I indicated above: I doubt they’d try to impose their post-Maoist system on us for the sake of it, but screwing with our political system and culture to keep the revenue flowing back to the PRC to fund and stabilise their rule? Of course they would 8O


I was thinking more along the lines of "The 5 Eyes" information-sharing agreement.
"A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
It appears that that weak link might be you Tommies". 8O

Get out there and protest, NOW!. :wink:



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11 Apr 2020, 7:13 am

China