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Reaction to George Floyd murder a moral panic?

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sly279
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15 Jun 2020, 5:10 am

HighLlama wrote:
People realize America was built on the enslavement of black people, right? These George Floyd protests are not just about George Floyd or the police.

All nations are built on slavery.


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magz
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15 Jun 2020, 5:47 am

sly279 wrote:
All nations are built on slavery.

Not the way US is.

Take Haiti, a nation most definitely "built on slavery" - it's a nation of descendants of slaves who rebelled against their owners and founded their own state.

Most of the Old Continent has at least some history of serfdom - today, descendants of the serfs are indistinguishable from descendants of their masters, most people have some contribution of both.
It's a phenomenon of North America that you managed to keep racial segregation for so long - unlike Carribean and parts of Latin America where having some African and some Native American ancestry is just the way people are, not a minority issue.


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HighLlama
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15 Jun 2020, 11:43 am

sly279 wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
People realize America was built on the enslavement of black people, right? These George Floyd protests are not just about George Floyd or the police.

All nations are built on slavery.


I guess they should be cool with it then, right? Yes, there is no luxury without slavery, and Aristotle talked about the relationship between civilization and slavery ages ago. My point is that it's incredibly superficial and naive to not expect some upheaval from people effected by any nation's history of slavery. That doesn't mean I think people should behave however they want, but this goes way beyond right and wrong, despite what a lot of moralizers here want to think.



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15 Jun 2020, 12:53 pm

Well the thing is, is that what do these rioters hope to accomplish? There are always going to be racist criminals in the world who commit crimes and murders out of racist motivations. Let's say the rioters actually did manage to eventually overthrow the U.S. government and have a successful coup d'état. Then they have new law enforcement for the country. But that new law enforcement is just going to have a racist jerk here or there in it too.

It's never going to end, and I doubt these rioters would be able to install the perfect infallible government, after a coup d'état. There is always going to be bad apples, and it will never end, even if you install a new government. So aren't these rioters just beating a dead horse?



Bradleigh
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15 Jun 2020, 6:08 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well the thing is, is that what do these rioters hope to accomplish? There are always going to be racist criminals in the world who commit crimes and murders out of racist motivations. Let's say the rioters actually did manage to eventually overthrow the U.S. government and have a successful coup d'état. Then they have new law enforcement for the country. But that new law enforcement is just going to have a racist jerk here or there in it too.

It's never going to end, and I doubt these rioters would be able to install the perfect infallible government, after a coup d'état. There is always going to be bad apples, and it will never end, even if you install a new government. So aren't these rioters just beating a dead horse?


I don't know if you are doing it on purpose or subconsciously, but you are referring to protestors as rioters through you sentence. Don't you see that as kind of messed up for whatever is telling you about the situation is telling you that these people calling for things are not people protesting for a better world, but violent rioters that are just causing chaos?


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ironpony
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15 Jun 2020, 6:13 pm

Well there is a lot rioting according to people in the U.S. saying their business are being destroyed by rioters, so doesn't that mean that there is a lot of it going on because of the protesting situation?



Bradleigh
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15 Jun 2020, 6:20 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well there is a lot rioting according to people in the U.S. saying their business are being destroyed by rioters, so doesn't that mean that there is a lot of it going on because of the protesting situation?


Opportunistic rioters are not necessarily representative of the larger movement.


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ironpony
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15 Jun 2020, 6:30 pm

Oh okay, if they are not, then they're not, yes. But wouldn't defunding the police department possibly do more harm than good when it comes to solving bigger crimes? I mean going undercover to bust a gang or organized crime for example?



Bradleigh
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15 Jun 2020, 6:47 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, if they are not, then they're not, yes. But wouldn't defunding the police department possibly do more harm than good when it comes to solving bigger crimes? I mean going undercover to bust a gang or organized crime for example?


Defund does not mean not have law enforcement or itself exist, just cut the bloated bits that give them tools to have them want to hammer some nails, force things to meet quotas, and not hire people who are itching to use extreme force on civilians.


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15 Jun 2020, 7:08 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, if they are not, then they're not, yes. But wouldn't defunding the police department possibly do more harm than good when it comes to solving bigger crimes? I mean going undercover to bust a gang or organized crime for example?


Defund does not mean not have law enforcement or itself exist, just cut the bloated bits that give them tools to have them want to hammer some nails, force things to meet quotas, and not hire people who are itching to use extreme force on civilians.

Defund does not mean cut funds it literally means no funds. No funds mean the "police" are street gangs and private security made up of ex-cops. Me thinks this whole notion of it is only reappropriating funds is a smokescreen to make it more palatable to the public, to do this as a first step towered the eventual goal of no police. If you think the police are systematically racist to the core the only logical solution is getting rid of it entirely.


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ironpony
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15 Jun 2020, 10:51 pm

What if the American government, like the President gave an order that all police are to be relieved of duty in the country for say six whole months. No police on the job whatsoever.

Then crime will go way up in that time, and then maybe these protesters minds will be changed, and if crime gets bad enough with no police around, they even be begging for the police to come back, realizing they need them?



Bradleigh
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15 Jun 2020, 11:09 pm

ironpony wrote:
What if the American government, like the President gave an order that all police are to be relieved of duty in the country for say six whole months. No police on the job whatsoever.

Then crime will go way up in that time, and then maybe these protesters minds will be changed, and if crime gets bad enough with no police around, they even be begging for the police to come back, realizing they need them?


So your only answers are either police brutality or no law enforcement at all?
What if protestors complained that firemen were not doing a good enough job, you threaten them with no fire service?
Or if they complained that hospitals were being negligent and killing people, you would say that they get no hospitals?

Why is it such a binary thing that you think people have to put up with the system abusing them, or the system entirely neglecting them?


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ironpony
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16 Jun 2020, 12:10 am

Well I think it's a case of people not knowing that something is good, unless it is taken away from them. Now it's not perfect of course, but I don't think that defunding will bring good out of it. I mean they say that it will lead to less cowboy-ish behavior but how exactly?

But no of course I don't want police brutality.

But I suppose yes, taking the police away for six months is not a good solution. I think the best solution is to go after and arrest the rioters though, which the police have not seem to have been doing as much. Sure listen to the peaceful protesters, but arrest the rioters, if they are committing crimes, which it seems they haven't been much.



Last edited by ironpony on 16 Jun 2020, 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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16 Jun 2020, 12:58 am

Defunding the police or attacking the police is not the issue.

The police only reflect the values of the wider majority population - therein lies the problem

But of course when black celebrities get accosted for jaywalking or driving a porsche or daring to be in public in a white suburb then the police need to be held accountable. One wonders what would happen to the Obamas if their didn't have security.



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16 Jun 2020, 1:16 am

I think that some people may have a very skewed point of view of how bad the police are though. The police do do a lot of good things, but the media doesn't report on them because they only want to report the bad things for headlines. Good news isn't worth reporting. So I think a lot of the good things they do is not being accounted for, in a lot of peoples eyes.



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16 Jun 2020, 1:54 am

magz wrote:
sly279 wrote:
All nations are built on slavery.

Not the way US is.

Take Haiti, a nation most definitely "built on slavery" - it's a nation of descendants of slaves who rebelled against their owners and founded their own state.

Most of the Old Continent has at least some history of serfdom - today, descendants of the serfs are indistinguishable from descendants of their masters, most people have some contribution of both.
It's a phenomenon of North America that you managed to keep racial segregation for so long - unlike Carribean and parts of Latin America where having some African and some Native American ancestry is just the way people are, not a minority issue.



Don't forget, when Haitians fought against the people keeping them enslaved and won their freedom the US, the UK and France all cooperated to punish them for it. Those three countries all owe Haiti for their horrific policies over the past >200 years and the world should hold them accountable even if there's no chance in hell of justice ever being done.


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