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Is patriotism an excuse for doing terrible crimes ?

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chris1989
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09 Sep 2020, 10:02 am

I also remember seeing a clip of someone who was 18 who went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because he felt was justified to hunt down and punish those responsible for the 9/11 attacks and that it is justified when a country is under attack or being invaded. But I don't agree that it was right or ''patriotic'' for British and American troops to torture and kill innocent iraqi civilians and set up Guantanamo Bay to torture people and thinking surely descending to that level will make us in the West look like monsters just like the people they are fighting against.



DeathEmperor413
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09 Sep 2020, 10:07 am

chris1989 wrote:
I also remember seeing a clip of someone who was 18 who went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because he felt was justified to hunt down and punish those responsible for the 9/11 attacks and that it is justified when a country is under attack or being invaded. But I don't agree that it was right or ''patriotic'' for British and American troops to torture and kill innocent iraqi civilians and set up Guantanamo Bay to torture people and thinking surely descending to that level will make us in the West look like monsters just like the people they are fighting against.


Unfortunately that's exactly what happened, and I guess it proves that Western Civilization ain't exactly the good guys that they claim to be.


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Fnord
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09 Sep 2020, 10:12 am

 

Image

A Comparison of Patriotism vs. Nationalism:

Patriotism: "My country can always do better."
Nationalism: "My country is already the best."

Patriotism: "My country, right or wrong!"
Nationalism: "My country; love it or leave it!"

Patriotism: A sense of personal identification with the country and its people.
Nationalism: A sense of personal identification with the government and the ruling class.

Patriotism: Critical of the country whenever necessary.
Nationalism: Silences the critics whenever possible.

Patriotism: Diversity is the foundation of our existence, and must be encouraged.
Nationalism: Diversity is the bane of our existence, and must be eliminated.

Patriotism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for All.
Nationalism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for the Privileged Few.

Patriotism: Fighting Nazis.
Nationalism: Being Nazis.

Patriotism: Freedom of Press, Speech, and Peaceful Assembly.
Nationalism: Propaganda, Censorship, and Harassment.

Patriotism: Government by consent of the governed.
Nationalism: Government by force and decree of those who govern.

Patriotism: Hiring and promotion based solely on ability.
Nationalism: Hiring and promotion based on race and gender.

Patriotism: Learning from our history and the history of others.
Nationalism: Teaching our version of history to others.

Patriotism: Pride in who you are.
Nationalism: Pride in who you are not.

Patriotism: Special concern for the well-being of the citizenry.
Nationalism: Special concern for the well-being of the leadership.

Patriotism: Upholding the right of others to disagree with authority.
Nationalism: Equating disagreement with treachery, disloyalty, and moral decay.

Patriotism: Willingness to sacrifice oneself to promote the country's good.
Nationalism: Willingness to sacrifice others to promote one's own self-interest.

America's problems aren't as much about Left vs. Right as they are about Patriotism vs. Nationalism.



DeathEmperor413
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09 Sep 2020, 10:29 am

Fnord wrote:
 
Image

A Comparison of Patriotism vs. Nationalism:

Patriotism: "My country can always do better."
Nationalism: "My country is already the best."

Patriotism: "My country, right or wrong!"
Nationalism: "My country; love it or leave it!"

Patriotism: A sense of personal identification with the country and its people.
Nationalism: A sense of personal identification with the government and the ruling class.

Patriotism: Critical of the country whenever necessary.
Nationalism: Silences the critics whenever possible.

Patriotism: Diversity is the foundation of our existence, and must be encouraged.
Nationalism: Diversity is the bane of our existence, and must be eliminated.

Patriotism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for All.
Nationalism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for the Privileged Few.

Patriotism: Fighting Nazis.
Nationalism: Being Nazis.

Patriotism: Freedom of Press, Speech, and Peaceful Assembly.
Nationalism: Propaganda, Censorship, and Harassment.

Patriotism: Government by consent of the governed.
Nationalism: Government by force and decree of those who govern.

Patriotism: Hiring and promotion based solely on ability.
Nationalism: Hiring and promotion based on race and gender.

Patriotism: Learning from our history and the history of others.
Nationalism: Teaching our version of history to others.

Patriotism: Pride in who you are.
Nationalism: Pride in who you are not.

Patriotism: Special concern for the well-being of the citizenry.
Nationalism: Special concern for the well-being of the leadership.

Patriotism: Upholding the right of others to disagree with authority.
Nationalism: Equating disagreement with treachery, disloyalty, and moral decay.

Patriotism: Willingness to sacrifice oneself to promote the country's good.
Nationalism: Willingness to sacrifice others to promote one's own self-interest.

America's problems aren't as much about Left vs. Right as they are about Patriotism vs. Nationalism.


Pretty much.


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Fnord
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09 Sep 2020, 10:30 am

One more...

Patriotism: War should only be undertaken when diplomacy has failed.
Nationalist: Diplomacy flows from the barrel of a gun.



DeathEmperor413
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09 Sep 2020, 10:40 am

Fnord wrote:
One more...

Patriotism: War should only be undertaken when diplomacy has failed.
Nationalist: Diplomacy flows from the barrel of a gun.


I get sick and tired of America's war-mongering. I really do.


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Fnord
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09 Sep 2020, 10:48 am

DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Patriotism: War should only be undertaken when diplomacy has failed.
Nationalist: Diplomacy flows from the barrel of a gun.
I get sick and tired of America's war-mongering. I really do.
We need more Patriots and fewer Nationalists.

No ... I take that back.

We don't need any Nationalists at all.



DeathEmperor413
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09 Sep 2020, 10:51 am

Fnord wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Patriotism: War should only be undertaken when diplomacy has failed.
Nationalist: Diplomacy flows from the barrel of a gun.
I get sick and tired of America's war-mongering. I really do.
We need more Patriots and fewer Nationalists.

No ... I take that back.

We don't need any Nationalists at all.


Indeed! :nerdy:


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Bradleigh
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10 Sep 2020, 4:52 am

The line between patriot and nationalist is very thin, and often those who would strongly call themselves are patriot are actually nationalists and will accuse anyone who is not a nationalist of not being patriotic, plus there is a lot of difference of opinion where the loyalty to your nation can do wrong. I can only think of the big difference being between how despite loving your own country you would be willing to criticize it to do better, and how open you are to outsiders. If you consider yourself a patriot and hate people in general outside of your nation, then you are a nationalist.

But the line is so blurry that I have little faith in anyone who calls themselves a patriot, since it seems like most these days just use it to say their homeland is beyond criticism, and that leads to terrible things.


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